Guest syko Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 One point I would like to make is that Christ HAS already conquered the World. Before you jump my case, let me explain what I mean: The World is in slavery to sin, and that slavery is how the Earth has control of us humans. Christ's death and resurrection have defeated the slavery of sin by giving us a way to God and to Heaven. The Jews (if my information is correct) were expecting a physical earthly leader to overthrow the Caesar of the time and take worldly kingship over the Earth. Instead He took spiritual kingship over the Earth and gave Christians the task of subduing the earth peacefully. In Christ's second coming I believe that is when he will take up a worldly kingship over the Earth. But before He would do that, He wanted US to come to HIM of our own volition. Coming of our decision and free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkilletRocksMyFace Posted November 17, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 121 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1983 Share Posted November 17, 2004 I dont know why it is important for Christ to have fullilled the ressurection and kingdom his first time around. What is the big deal? CHrist came and did fullfill all of the OT prophocey as the son of God and the way to salvation. He did not fail in anything otherwise he would have sinned and we know CHrist did not. Thus he was made perfect and in turn will make us perfect at the judment if we are worthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted November 17, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.20 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 17, 2004 One point I would like to make is that Christ HAS already conquered the World. Before you jump my case, let me explain what I mean: The World is in slavery to sin, and that slavery is how the Earth has control of us humans. Christ's death and resurrection have defeated the slavery of sin by giving us a way to God and to Heaven. The Jews (if my information is correct) were expecting a physical earthly leader to overthrow the Caesar of the time and take worldly kingship over the Earth. Instead He took spiritual kingship over the Earth and gave Christians the task of subduing the earth peacefully. In Christ's second coming I believe that is when he will take up a worldly kingship over the Earth. But before He would do that, He wanted US to come to HIM of our own volition. Coming of our decision and free will. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, they really do have good ground to believe this. A lot of the messianic passages in the Torah explicitely give the idea that the messiah will set up an earthly kingdom...the only problem is they refuse to interpret it alongside other Messianic prophecies that "contradict" the conqueror passages. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, I'm simply trying to provide it from a Jew's perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Okay, I kind of understand now. So basically, the Jews wanted a Messiah, as it says in the old testament, to set up rule on the earth his first time around. At the same time the bible says the messiah would suffer greatly in his life. So either there are 2 messiahs or 2 comings of the same messiah(Even though the old testament doesn't mention 2 comings). Is that pretty much what Christians believe? Is there anything that says that the messiah would be the Son of god seeing that "messiah" means annoited one, and all Jewish kings were annointed without being called the son of god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borntorebel Posted November 17, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 127 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 17, 2004 Actually, there are scriptures in the OT that point to the second coming of the Messiah, or as we know, Jesus Christ. "And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?" Joel 2:11; "The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly." Zeph. 1:14; "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1. So as we see here, there are instances in the OT where the second coming of Christ is referred to. The verse in Joel relates to Mt. 24:29, Mark 13:24 and Rev. 6:13. The verse in Malachi relates to Jn. 12:48. We can see that this second coming of Jesus isn't pleasant for those who aren't followers of God or Christ. It is a very terrible day where mighty men shall cry and the proud and wicked shall be burned up. We know this doesn't relate to Christ's first coming, but it goes along nicely wit what the NT has to say about the second coming of Christ. Syko says, The Jews (if my information is correct) were expecting a physical earthly leader to overthrow the Caesar of the time and take worldly kingship over the Earth. Instead He took spiritual kingship over the Earth and gave Christians the task of subduing the earth peacefully. Can you show me where it says in scripture that we as christians are given the task of subduing the earth peacefully? Syko says, In Christ's second coming I believe that is when he will take up a worldly kingship over the Earth. But before He would do that, He wanted US to come to HIM of our own volition. Coming of our decision and free will. How do you justify your position of coming to Christ of our own volition and freewill in relation to these scriptures? "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directs his steps" Prov. 16:9; "Man's goings (Heb. steps) are of the Lord: how can a man then understand his own way?" Prov. 20:24; "For now thou numberest my steps: dost thou not watch over my sin?" Job 14:16; "The steps of a man are ordered [Heb. established] by the Lord" Psa. 37:23; "For God locks up all (both Israel and Gentiles) together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Israel and Gentiles) Rom. 11:32; "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10; " For it is God which WORKETH IN YOU both TO WILL and TO DO of his good pleasure." Phlp. 2:13; "It is not in man to direct his own steps" Jer. 10:23; "Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He (God) still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?' O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, 'Why do you make me thus?' Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?" Rom. 9:18-21; "As it is written, 'There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that SEEKETH after God." Rom. 3:10-11; "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you ... " Jn. 15:16; "Will the axe (the Assyrian King) beautify itself over the one (God) hewing with it? Should the chief's mace magnify itself over the one (God) waving it? As if a club is also waving the one raising it! As if a rod is raising one who is not wood!" Isa. 10:15; "No man can come to me (Jesus), except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Jn. 6:44; "And he (Jesus) said, 'Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of my Father." Jn. 6:65; We see here that God is the one who is in control. You can't have a sovereign God and a creature who can choose to follow Him. God tells in His own word that no man seeketh after God. If God says no man seeks Him, and only those whom He gives the opportunity to receive salvation through His Son Jesus Christ have the ability to come to Him, where does our fabled 'freewill' come into play? May God's grace, peace and power be with you,. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted November 18, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted November 18, 2004 Grace to you, Borntorebel, where does our fabled 'freewill' come into play? It comes into play right here; Ge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted November 18, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Hey, jbangel! Is there anything that says that the messiah would be the Son of god seeing that "messiah" means annoited one, and all Jewish kings were annointed without being called the son of god? Where did the title "Messiah" come from? Is it in the Old Testament for the Promised One to be called "Messiah"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borntorebel Posted November 18, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 127 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 18, 2004 Dave says, FREE WILL! It continues today right now. As seed of Adam born of mans will and volition. We have the choice to continue on in that death. Or heed God's call and turn from the path of self. Repenting and Believing His very Word and being Saved. Thereby dying unto the flesh and living unto the Spirit. Thank you for the offering of grace Luke. I have never said we don't have the ability to make choices. Man, however, doesn't have the choice to not have their child born into sin. That right there is a simple proof that freewill (the ability to make choices without cause) doesn't exist. God alone has the power to give life, and no woman has ever given birth to a child that God didn't first give life to. The scriptures you presented show man's ability to choose and with that I agree 100%. The concept of freewill, which I already gave you the definition, says there isn't divine intervention. Do you also agree with that? Or do you change the meaning of the word to fit your theological belief system? In the post of mine you responded to, I also presented many scriptures which support my belief. Interesting how you didn't attempt to disprove how they support my belief. Again, let it be known, I am not saying we don't have the ability to make choices, for we do. I'm saying that no choice has ever been made by a human being which was without a cause. Therefore, there isn't freewill. Dave says, Your choice Blessing or the Curse? Ro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted November 18, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted November 18, 2004 Dear brother Ron, I am too stupid to have an opinion on the matter. I defer to the very Word of God. 1Ch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borntorebel Posted November 18, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 127 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 18, 2004 (edited) Dave says, 1Ch Edited November 18, 2004 by borntorebel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts