Defense of the Pre-Wrath Rapture

[Montana Marv]

I like to go by a few verses from the Word (Scriptures)

 

If you can find a verse or two that supports ones belief in a Mid, Pre-wrath, or Post Rapture  position.  You have found NO supporing verses.  Again, you have not found ANY supporting verses.

 

John 1:1,2 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was with God in the beginning.   v14 - The Word became flesh and made his dwelling amoung us, we have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and Truth.     Matt 25:13 - Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.  (of the Brdegrooms arrival)   and Matt 24:36 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

 

My point being is that the time for the Rapture is not supported by any Scripture (Word) - which is Jesus Christ.  Now we know that Jesus Christ was that Word who was with God from the beginning.  Col 1:16 - For by Him (Jesus Christ) all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him.

 

Think about it; Which Rapture position has no supporting Scriptues.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest]

Sorry Marv,

 

I don't think I even understand what most of your post is saying, so I cannot respond to it.

 

Regarding the one line which read:

 

"If you can find a verse or two that supports ones belief in a Mid, Pre-wrath, or Post Rapture  position.  You have found NO supporing verses.  Again, you have not found ANY supporting verses."

 

I think there are many people who do not believe in a pre-trib rapture, precisely becuase they see no supporting verses. Also, I assume you meant Post-trib not Post Rapture, if not, what is the post rapture position?

 

However, I really do not want to encourage much of a response, from you in this thread, unless you are planning on adding either evidence for, or clarity to, the pre-wrath postition, since that is the topic of the thread.

[Guest]

Very interesting guys Im seeing both points and I will do more study on this 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

very

Good idea Red, my recommendation is not to study a position though, just study the bible. You might note down in  journal the verses that you think support a view point or seem to contradict a view point. You will find that evey position can be supported or conctradicted, depending on how you understand or interpret a verse of passage. That being the case, we know some undertstandings have to be errors, then compare with other verses on the same aspects of your study, and see if they add light. Eventually, you will find that there are large amounts of evidence for some aspects of eschatological opinion, while others clearly depend on assumptions that are never stated in the text. Your job is to determine if these suppostions are really justified, or just the result of people's wishes being forced on the text, or the parroting of what they heard somewhere else.

 

I think you will find after doing this for some years, that a picture will immerge about these things. It may never reach certainty for you, but you will likely find that you can conclude that the scenarios will range from unlikey to possibly, to probably the case. May the Lord bless you with understanding as you become a better Berean.

[firestormx]

Good idea Red, my recommendation is not to study a position though, just study the bible. You might note down in  journal the verses that you think support a view point or seem to contradict a view point. You will find that evey position can be supported or conctradicted, depending on how you understand or interpret a verse of passage. That being the case, we know some undertstandings have to be errors, then compare with other verses on the same aspects of your study, and see if they add light. Eventually, you will find that there are large amounts of evidence for some aspects of eschatological opinion, while others clearly depend on assumptions that are never stated in the text. Your job is to determine if these suppostions are really justified, or just the result of people's wishes being forced on the text, or the parroting of what they heard somewhere else.

 

I think you will find after doing this for some years, that a picture will immerge about these things. It may never reach certainty for you, but you will likely find that you can conclude that the scenarios will  range from unlikey to possibly, to probably the case. May the Lord bless you with understanding as you become a better Berean.

What he said.

[Guest]

I stop it here because the verse does not say after the tribulation, it says after the tribulation of those days. There is a difference, it's referring to the abomination of desolation which just happened and all the fall out from it.

 

When I read that, I will admit, it cuased me to ponder. My first reaction was that the most reasonable way to understand it, that is to say the most natural was, is to assume that the tribulation of those days, is the great tribulation that Jesus just mentioned, But after thinking a little more, I thought it is possible to understand that those days might be some earlier days that He had alluded to. I but the thought on the back burner. Today I came back to rexamine both what you said, and what Jesus said, and I find myself a bit confuses again by what you mean.

 

"the verse does not say after the tribulation, it says after the tribulation of those days. There is a difference, it's referring to the abomination of desolation which just happened and all the fall out from it.

 

So, if in mind is the Abomination of Desolation and all the fallout from it, let's examine what all the fallout from it is:

 

 

<< Matthew 24 >>

 

 

15"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17"Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18"Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19"But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20"But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or There [He is],' do not believe [him]. 24"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25"Behold, I have told you in advance. 26"So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, [or], 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe [them]. 27"For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28"Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

The Glorious Return

29"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

In verse 15, the abomination is mentioned, and some instruction is given on what to do. The very next event in sequence after the abomination, the fallout if you will, is in verse 21:

 

"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

 

It also says those days will be cut short. We could certainly have a conversation on the meaning of that part, but for now, I do not see any disctintion, between your idea (if I understand you correctly) that the tribulation of those days is some tribulation other that Jesus said would occur as the next thing in the chain of events after the abomination.

 

 Can you see why I can see no technical difference between the typical understanding that Jesus was referring to the great tribulation (the events just after the abomination) and the tribulation of "those days" which seem to me to be the same thing? Did I totally miss your point?

 

I think something colbalt1959 said before comes into play again. I think we just both understand these verses differently

 

Well of course, lol, if we understood them the same, I would not be asking for clarity

The crux of the pre-wrath position is that the rapture comes before the wrath of God starts. Most people who follow pre-wrath place the wrath starting where I did. The 6th seal, because that's when we are gathered to him in both Matthew and revelation. Many who follow pre-wrath also hold that the verses in Joel, Matthew and revelation that I gave before are all talking about the same event. I was actually at one time in my life pre-trib. Through a lot of prayer and study come to this conclusion based on what the word says. If this is wrong, (which is possible with all the mistakes I make,) then I pray Jesus corrects me and brings me into the light of his truth. I hope this discussion we have had, brings you to a closer understanding of pre-wrath.

 

Thank you so much. I too was once a pre-tribber, in fact, for years I did not know there was any other position. Once I heard that, I opened my bible, and hand wrote every verse I could identify from Gen to Rev, that seemed that it might shed light on sequence and timing. They were like post-it notes, and I kept rearranging them until I had no contradictions or major assumptions, to get all verses to work. I was not only shocked at all the verses and passages that seemed to contradict pre-tribism, I was even more amazed to discover, than none really even would lead one to think of pre-tribism, if one had not heard it somewhere before. I was mad for a while.

 

So, are you saying then that pre-wrath, is basically like post-trib, except that we slide where the wrath of God begins a bit to the left and that you think post-tribbers assume the wrath of God does not begin until the 7 years is up?

 

Just to clarify a bit on my personal position, the tribulation is not equivalent to the 70th week, not the second half of the 70th week, tribulation is something that occurs during the 1st half  of the 70th week, and intensifies (great tribulation) during the second half, after the abomination. Tribulation is a happening, not a time period. Much like there is soda in a bottle, but the soda is NOT the bottle, one contains the other, and the bottle is not necessarily full. I think I asked before, and do not remember seeing an answer:

 

In the pre-wrath postion, how many second comings are there? We all agree I think, that Jesus returns visibly for the elect, immediately after the tribulation of those days, we get the celestial phenom, the sign of the Son of Man appears and the tribes of the earth see Son of Man return, and He gathers the elect etc. 

 

So, that is classic post-tribism, historic premillenialism if you will.  Abomination- great tribulation-celestial phenom-Jesus returns gloriously,the gathering of the elect. Does pre-wrathism just insert a benchmark into that sequence, pointing to where the Wrath actually begins, and therefore just become a varient of post-tribism, with an expression of when the wrath of God is? As I said, an article I read on pre-wrathism, inserts a coming into the sequence like pre-tribism does, just at a later time, but still has 2 second comings, not one, comments? Thanks again.

 

 

[Guest]

 

 A post-wrath rapture is not possible at all, scripturally speaking.  If one is going to still believe in a rapture, pre-trib or pre-wrath are the only two options.

 

 

I think this is important. First, I need to clarify though, that there is no position that I know of, that maintains uniformly amoung it's adherants, that a post-wrath rapture is indicated. Post-wrath is not a required feature of post-trib, though I do not doubt that some post-tribbers are post-wrathers. I am curious about the comment though, that post wrath is not possible. Why is that again?

[firestormx]

Ok, with the meaning of tribulation as you explained in your post, I'll restate the order of pre-wrath, leaving out the word tribulation. My reason is I would agree in principle to your definition. the 70th week starts with the peace accord made with many nations. the seals are broken one by one until the 5th. In Matthew 24 it states that after the persecution of the saints ( the 5th seal ) the abomination of desolation takes place. Then some time after the abomination of desolation , the sixth seal happens. with the sixth seal we are taken to meet Christ in the air ( raptured ) and the wrath of God begins on earth. While we are in heaven (  judgment seat of Christ, etc. ) , on earth the Wrath Of God begins. The 7th seal- 7th bowel. After the 7th bowel Christ returns ( us with him ) sets foot on the Mount of Olives, dispatches of the Anti-Christ and his army with the sword of his mouth. Then sets up his kingdom for a 1000 year reign.

 

I've always thought the post-trib position was Christ returned 1 time at the end of the 70th week. No rapture, other than to meet him in the air, just to come immediately back down to earth to set up his 1000 year reign. Is that your position?

Edited July 3, 2013 by firestormx

[Elhanan]

One potential problem with the pre-wrath position is that it posits that the rapture occurs after the opening of the 6th seal when the saints at that time will all be raptured at once.  However, closer examination of the Greek text reads that in Rev 7:14 the ones are "coming out" of the affliction. Most Bibles read that they have "come out" which conveys the past tense, a punctiliar singular event. Coming out on the other hand indicates a gradual, one by one process.  This leaves the possibility that the rapture here is not being described at all but rather describing the saints entering heaven one by one as they are martyred. I have not taken the time to examine the actual Greek verb tense though - just happened to skim my interlinear.

[Guest]

Ok, with the meaning of tribulation as you explained in your post, I'll restate the order of pre-wrath, leaving out the word tribulation. My reason is I would agree in principle to your definition. the 70th week starts with the peace accord made with many nations. the seals are broken one by one until the 5th. In Matthew 24 it states that after the persecution of the saints ( the 5th seal ) the abomination of desolation takes place. Then some time after the abomination of desolation , the sixth seal happens. with the sixth seal we are taken to meet Christ in the air ( raptured ) and the wrath of God begins on earth. While we are in heaven (  judgment seat of Christ, etc. ) , on earth the Wrath Of God begins. The 7th seal- 7th bowel. After the 7th bowel Christ returns ( us with him ) sets foot on the Mount of Olives, dispatches of the Anti-Christ and his army with the sword of his mouth. Then sets up his kingdom for a 1000 year reign.

 

I've always thought the post-trib position was Christ returned 1 time at the end of the 70th week. No rapture, other than to meet him in the air, just to come immediately back down to earth to set up his 1000 year reign. Is that your position?

O.K. Clearly we are nearing common ground, which is cool. Not sure how to easily answer or clarify, as you know, it is not as though there is a pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, prewrath etc position. There are in fact variations within views just as there are variations even within denominations. If there are 300

people who agree on everything, chances are at least 299 of the are not thinking.

 

I quickly threw together a graphic, which I hope has features we share in common. It is not intended to be complete, but has some notable occurances tossed in for interest. There is a scale at the bottom, that we or others can reference, to describe about where we thing some incident belongs.

 

 

 

I think the graphic will be helpful in zeroing in, on the details that you, I and others are intending to express, with more clarity,

since we can place any given event at a corresponding number on the scale.

 

Now, regarding post-tribbers, I can not speak for all of them, but certainly a lot of them beleive that the sun/moon/stars and

Jesus return occur at about 11 on the scale. This is becauase they are assuming that the tribulation and or the great tribulation

is synonymous with the 70th week. I myself thought that, and I think it is largely because the pretribbers/dispensationalists have

largely defined it that way. Just as we speak of the rapture almost as if that word is in the bible, instead of referring to it as the

catching up of beleivers, a more descriptive expression, but we pretty much have accepted the term and use it commonly.

 

As I have said, I see the tribulation/great tribulation as occurances within the 70th week, as I beleive that is the more scripturally

accurate way of viewing it. Again, I think the dispensationalists in general, just prefer things in neat, tidy packages, with no

vague edges or overlaps.

 

Over the last 3 decades, I am still refining my view, and it is subject to change without notice. One of those changes is submission

to the fact that the tribulation is never specified as a time period, nor with a hard start/stop - in is placed within a sequence. As I have

read many of the comments that were made in the early church expressing their understanding about these events and sequences,

I have noticed that they similarly do not see these things in terms of blocks that would suggest that they understood the great tribulation

as anything like a hard ended event that paralelled the 70th week.

 

Since in my understanding, the great trib is within, the 70th week (whether or not it runs to the end of it, and the sun/moon/star/return

follow that tribulation, I feel justified in lableing my belief as a post-tribulational return of Christ, and since I see no indication in scripture

of multiple returns, and similarities in the events in Matt 24 / Thess letters / Revelation etc, I tend to beleive that the rapture and the

glorius second coming, are at the same time (at least roughly and certainly not separated by 7 years).

 

I probably agree that wrath begins where you say it does, in terms of the seals. I do not however hold, that it is impossible for the church

to be present at the time of Gods wrath, I merely agree that it is impossible that God's wrath is directed at us. We might have a different

notion of the time interval between when the Rapture occurs, and when Jesus returns all the way to earth. These though are the sorts of

details that I am fishing for,trying to find out exactly what are the differentce between pre-wrath and post-trib, so far, I think pre-wrath is

a subspecies of post-trib, am I wrong?

 

I guess I did not say yet, I think that Jesus return/rapture, is probably between 10 and 11.Does that clarify my position?

[Guest]

One potential problem with the pre-wrath position is that it posits that the rapture occurs after the opening of the 6th seal when the saints at that time will all be raptured at once.  However, closer examination of the Greek text reads that in Rev 7:14 the ones are "coming out" of the affliction. Most Bibles read that they have "come out" which conveys the past tense, a punctiliar singular event. Coming out on the other hand indicates a gradual, one by one process.  This leaves the possibility that the rapture here is not being described at all but rather describing the saints entering heaven one by one as they are martyred. I have not taken the time to examine the actual Greek verb tense though - just happened to skim my interlinear.

Interesting point to investigate, I also have not tried to sort that out in the Greek, but in English, the point is not that solid.

 

For example, if it were Jan 1st, and you were describing the previous 2 weeks, it might be possible that you wife returned items to the Mall, and returned home on Dec 31. Your kids might have been there two days prior, and then returned. Perhaps you neighbor did some window shopping in the 20th, and returned home.

 

You might say that last year, your wife, your kids, and your neighber were all at the mall, but they came out. It is not necessary to see that as a singular event, right?