Defense of the Pre-Wrath Rapture

[Guest]

O.K. To be honest, I would be happy just to get a description or definition of the pre-wrath rapture, is there any consensus. When I first heard the term back in the 1980s, I was already confused, since in my understanding of post-tribism, I thought post trib WAS pre-wrath.

 

In the 1990, I bought a book on the ore-wrath rapture. Upon reading that book, I discovered that is was about a varient of what we would call preterism, not at all what I was thinking it meant.

 

Most of what I see as pre-wrath, appears to be a subspecies of post-tribism anyway, and the differences as I think I understand it, are nothing I would squabble over at all. However, reading on the topic again, and the variant I was reading today described pre-wrathism as being more like pretribism being like pre-tribism, except that the rapture is delayed. In other word, it has Jesus coming again twice, like pre-tribism, once during the tribulation near the end, (which also makes it a little like mid-tribism I guess) and again at the end of the tribulation.

 

So, I am wondering if some of you pre-wrathers would like to comment on how you think the sequence unfolds, up until the Matt 24 return of Christ

 

 

Also, of no importance, but I will ask anyway . . .

 

we know of course that pre-trib rapture believers are affectionately known as premies, mid-trib rapture believers are known as middies, and post-trib rapture believers are known as posties, is the and equivalent for pre-wrath believers?

[missmuffet]

One of the problems with the pre-wrath rapture position is that the "elect" in Mathew 22:24,31 are church-age saints.These saints could be people saved during the seven-year trib.Another problem is that the first seal judgments are not the wrath of God.The Bible says that it is the Lamb who opens the seals Revelation 5:5,6:1.No other man is found worthy to open them Revelation 5:3-4.The tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal,and from that time on the wrath of God is delivered on the sinful world.

[firestormx]

I consider myself pre-wrath. As cobalt1959 said, I think it's how you interpret scripture. Pre-wrath and pre-trip are actually very similar, they both agree the saints are raptured before the wrath of God, they just differ on when the wrath of God starts. That's the simplest explanation I know to give. It comes down to how you understand a certain subject. Read these verses carefully.

 

Joel 2: 30-31

 

³⁰ And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

 

Matthew 24: 29-31

 

²⁹ “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’^[b]

³⁰ “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth^[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.^{[d] 31} And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

Revelation 6:12-17

 

¹² I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, ¹³ and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. ¹⁴ The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

¹⁵ Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. ¹⁶ They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us^[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of their^[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

A lot of the difference between pre-trip and pre-wrath as I said comes down to when the wrath of God starts. In Joel it says this event is before the wrath of God, matt. says it's after this event that Jesus comes and gathers his elect to meet him in the air, and revelation places the event as the 6th seal. Also in revelation if you finish reading verses 16 and 17 it talks about that right after this event is when the wrath of God begins.

 

A very simple explanation of one of the differences but hope it adds to the conversation.

 

God bless every one of you

Firestormx

Joseph

 

 

[Guest]

Just a comment, the first two follow-up posts, seem to do nothing to either defend or define the pre-wrath rapture position, so why did you post? If you want to promote a position, why not do it in the appropriate thread?

[Guest]

I consider myself pre-wrath. As cobalt1959 said, I think it's how you interpret scripture. Pre-wrath and pre-trip are actually very similar, they both agree the saints are raptured before the wrath of God, they just differ on when the wrath of God starts. That's the simplest explanation I know to give. It comes down to how you understand a certain subject. Read these verses carefully.

 

Joel 2: 30-31

 

³⁰ And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

 

Matthew 24: 29-31

 

²⁹ “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,

    and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’^[b]

³⁰ “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth^[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.^{[d] 31} And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

Revelation 6:12-17

 

¹² I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, ¹³ and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. ¹⁴ The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

¹⁵ Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. ¹⁶ They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us^[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of their^[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

A lot of the difference between pre-trip and pre-wrath as I said comes down to when the wrath of God starts. In Joel it says this event is before the wrath of God, matt. says it's after this event that Jesus comes and gathers his elect to meet him in the air, and revelation places the event as the 6th seal. Also in revelation if you finish reading verses 16 and 17 it talks about that right after this event is when the wrath of God begins.

 

A very simple explanation of one of the differences but hope it adds to the conversation.

 

God bless every one of you

Firestormx

Joseph

 

Thanks for the contribution, but I find it confusing a bit. 

All three os the passages you quoted, seem to have a mention of celestial phenomenon - the sun and moon and stars. You point out that in Matt 24, that this is after the tribulation, and that verse is very clear about that. But the section of Matt 24 that you quoted says nothing about the wrath of God, unless you assume that the events described equal the wrath of God

 

Similarly, the Joel passage that you cite, says nothing about the wrath of God either, unless you assume the Day of the Lord = the wratth of God. So, since the Joel passage says the Day of the Lord (or at least the beginning or some part of it) is before the sun, moon, stars thing, which Matt say is immediately after the tribulation of those days (described in Matt 24), doesn't that require that the Day of the Lord therefore preceeds the end of the tribulation? Of course it does, if those celestial events described art the same event.

 

Now, since the sequence from Matt and Joel indicate

 

end of tribulation,

Sun, moon, stars,

Day of the Lord,

 

we can look at the Revelation passage and see that the sun moon stars are associated with th 6th seal, and what seems to follow is :

 

Fall on us and hide us^[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of their^[g] wrath has come,

 

That whole sequence seems to indicate (taken on the face value of the passages you  presented) that all furturist positions are pre wrath, since wrath is the  last thing in sequence. So, especially since you did not indicate where in all of this the rapture is placed, I am not seeing the evidence for or against any of the positions, in these verses, even the post-trib scenario is pre-wrath, was the rapture indicated in any of those passages and I just missed it? Help me out here, and thanks for taking your time to try to explain this to me.

[firestormx]

 

I consider myself pre-wrath. As cobalt1959 said, I think it's how you interpret scripture. Pre-wrath and pre-trip are actually very similar, they both agree the saints are raptured before the wrath of God, they just differ on when the wrath of God starts. That's the simplest explanation I know to give. It comes down to how you understand a certain subject. Read these verses carefully.

 

Joel 2: 30-31

 

³⁰ And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

 

Matthew 24: 29-31

 

²⁹ “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,

    and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’^[b]

³⁰ “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth^[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.^{[d] 31} And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

Revelation 6:12-17

 

¹² I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, ¹³ and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. ¹⁴ The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

¹⁵ Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. ¹⁶ They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us^[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of their^[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

A lot of the difference between pre-trip and pre-wrath as I said comes down to when the wrath of God starts. In Joel it says this event is before the wrath of God, matt. says it's after this event that Jesus comes and gathers his elect to meet him in the air, and revelation places the event as the 6th seal. Also in revelation if you finish reading verses 16 and 17 it talks about that right after this event is when the wrath of God begins.

 

A very simple explanation of one of the differences but hope it adds to the conversation.

 

God bless every one of you

Firestormx

Joseph

 

Thanks for the contribution, but I find it confusing a bit. 

All three os the passages you quoted, seem to have a mention of celestial phenomenon - the sun and moon and stars. You point out that in Matt 24, that this is after the tribulation, and that verse is very clear about that. But the section of Matt 24 that you quoted says nothing about the wrath of God, unless you assume that the events described equal the wrath of God

 

Similarly, the Joel passage that you cite, says nothing about the wrath of God either, unless you assume the Day of the Lord = the wratth of God. So, since the Joel passage says the Day of the Lord (or at least the beginning or some part of it) is before the sun, moon, stars thing, which Matt say is immediately after the tribulation of those days (described in Matt 24), doesn't that require that the Day of the Lord therefore preceeds the end of the tribulation? Of course it does, if those celestial events described art the same event.

 

Now, since the sequence from Matt and Joel indicate

 

end of tribulation,

Sun, moon, stars,

Day of the Lord,

 

we can look at the Revelation passage and see that the sun moon stars are associated with th 6th seal, and what seems to follow is :

 

Fall on us and hide us^[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of their^[g] wrath has come,

 

That whole sequence seems to indicate (taken on the face value of the passages you  presented) that all furturist positions are pre wrath, since wrath is the  last thing in sequence. So, especially since you did not indicate where in all of this the rapture is placed, I am not seeing the evidence for or against any of the positions, in these verses, even the post-trib scenario is pre-wrath, was the rapture indicated in any of those passages and I just missed it? Help me out here, and thanks for taking your time to try to explain this to me.

 

Day of the Lord = Day of God's wrath. If you do a word study ( if you haven't )  of the phrases like, Day of the Lord, Great and terrible day of the Lord and the such , ( a lot more of the verses exist then most people think whom haven't studied it) then to me it's very clear, that the day of the Lord is the same as saying the day of his wrath or judgment.

 

As for the rapture, I apologize for not being clear. It's sometime after the event ( 6th seal ) described in Joel, Matthew and revelation. Joel clearly states this event is before God's wrath ( important because we are not appointed to wrath ), Matthew says after that event is when Jesus comes to get us to meet him in the air ( rapture ) , and revelation says it's after this event that the wrath of God starts. If you keep reading revelation, it's also after this event that there is a large group of people suddenly in heaven ( us ). Which I believe gives further biblical proof that the rapture of the saints is after this 1 event. Matthew says he comes and gets us after this event, and revelation shows us in heaven after this event.

 

The wrath of God is everything that follows the 6th seal. That is why we are taken to be with Christ. Post-trip is after the word of God says the wrath starts. Paul said we are not appointed to God's wrath. Since God's wrath starts after the 6th seal ( according to Joel and revelation ) then we must be taken before the first trumpet is blown. Post- trip can't be correct.

 

As for the day of the Lord being God's Wrath, let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. These verses below are talking specifically about Babylon, but if you read the text carefully ( I believe personally )  it is a prophecy about the end. Weather it is or not, it still gives an example and illustration about the Day of the Lord.

 

Isaiah 13: 6-9

 

Wail, for the day of the Lord is near;

    as destruction from the Almighty^[c] it will come!

⁷ Therefore all hands will be feeble,

    and every human heart will melt.

⁸ They will be dismayed:

    pangs and agony will seize them;

    they will be in anguish like a woman in labor.

They will look aghast at one another;

    their faces will be aflame.

⁹ Behold, the day of the Lord comes,

    cruel, with wrath and fierce anger,

to make the land a desolation

    and to destroy its sinners from it.

 

In these verses it is clear about a couple of things. 1 is the day of the lord includes God's wrath and anger. 2nd, one of it's purposes is to destroy the sinners from the land, which also means it's not meant to harm or destroy the righteous. Which is why we are raptured, Meet Christ in the air, after the sixth seal. That's why the Bible is so clear about this one event ( the sixth seal ) being right before the wrath of God begins.  If you haven't,  I suggest you do a study of the Day of the Lord.  Pre-trip says all the seals are God's wrath, which I have shown that everything up to the 6th seal can't be because the bible says so. Mid-trib sets a date. We would all know exactly when he was coming. Post-trip is after the wrath of God, which is for sinners not us. I hope this explains my beliefs a little more clearly, and again I apologize for not being clear before.

 

Any other questions I'll answer to the best of my ability.

[Guest]

Those were good and helpful answers, thank you. I have done study on phrases like day of the Lord, Day of God etc, and you are right, there is a treasure of information. However, I am not always able to conclude, that there is one Day of the Lord, as opposed to the one coming in the end, sometimes, the references are to previous times (or dual fulfillments) as you have also noticed.

 

If I understand you correctly, you believe that since Paul asserts that we are not appointed to wrath, that post-trib cannot be correct, since His wrath has begun prior to the end of the great tribulation. Of course, you know that pre-tribbers assert the same thing. This understanding is of course, dependant on two assumptions that as far as I know, cannot be proven scripturally.

 

The first assumption, is that the wrath that we are not appointed to, is the wrath of God that is judgement on the world at the close of the age, and not another form or case of His wrath that Paul may have had in mind. In fact, in 1 Thess 5:9, where Paul states that ( I assume that is what you had in mind ) Paul contrasts that wrath with an alternative - obtaining salvation. Is it not possible then that Paul there is saying in essence that we are not destined for the lake of fire, but for eternal salvation? Clearly the overall context of that passage, is concerning the times and epochs of the end, yet at the same time, the verse immediately before, speaks thusly:

 

But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 

 

THEN goes on to say

 

FOR (connecting it to what was just said) we will obtain salvation, Do we assume then that the breastplate of faith and love, is about salvation from the wrath on that day, or the eternal salvation. If faith is related to eternal salvation, then we are not destined for damnation. and of course this is true. Since there are (at least) two types of salvation that are potentially contrasted with wrath, then there are also two (at least) types of wrath that we are not destined for. One of them the eternal wrath of God is definitely true, that other, His vengeance poured out on the Earth at the end is not apparent to me.

The second assumption that must be made, is that since we are not appointed to wrath (in this case let's assume it is the wrath on that day) is that we must escape it in the rapture, instead of being preserved in the midst of it, as was the case in Egypt when the Hebrews were protected from the plagues, but were not removed, or the case of Lot, also not raptured. How about Noah, and family (protected on earth while the world was destroyed). These and other events, convince me that there is no removal necessary, to keep me from the wrath of God.

 

So, while I find your reasons to be reasonable, and not nonsensical  I do not find them compelling, because there are other ways that are also reasonable, to understand these verses.

 

You made the statement:

 

 "Matthew says after that event is when Jesus comes to get us to meet him in the air ( rapture )"

 

Specifically, Matthew says that Jesus said:

 

 29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

(please ignore the weird formatting, i did not so it, that is how it was where I copied it from)

 

is that what you are referring to? If so, I find myself confused again. That passage in unambiguous terms states that

 

1 immediately AFTER the tribulation

2 ​the celestial phenomena

3 THEN the Son of Man appears

4 AND the gathering will occur

 

If you identify that gathering as the rapture, as it appeared you did in the above quoted statement of yours, then the rapture is post-trib, period, whatever one brings in in addition , must harmonize with these clear statements or (it seems to me) that the understanding is incorrect and contradicting  clear and specific teaching.

 

Perhaps this is why some pre-wrathers have Jesus returning twice as pre-tribbers do, is that your position?

 

Now, you also made a comment that mid-tribbers set a date, and I would agree that they essentially do. I have never found merit in the mid-trib position, but in their defense I do not see where their date setting necessarily disqualifying. If that needs explanation, I will be happy to do so, but since my interest here is understanding better the pre-wrath position and it's merits, I will pass for now.

 

Thank you so much for your work in clarifying some things for me, you writing is good, and understandable, and your demeanor is excellent, I detect no chip on your shoulder or need to prove yourself right, at the expense of truth too common to these types of discussions. May the Lord further bless your attempts to gain clarity in these matters.
 

[firestormx]

In your above post you said

 

You made the statement:

 

 "Matthew says after that event is when Jesus comes to get us to meet him in the air ( rapture )"

 

Specifically, Matthew says that Jesus said:

 

 29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

(please ignore the weird formatting, i did not so it, that is how it was where I copied it from)

 

is that what you are referring to? If so, I find myself confused again. That passage in unambiguous terms states that

 

1. immediately AFTER the tribulation

 

 

 

I stop it here because the verse does not say after the tribulation, it says after the tribulation of those days. There is a difference, it's referring to the abomination of desolation which just happened and all the fall out from it.

 

I think something colbalt1959 said before comes into play again. I think we just both understand these verses differently

The crux of the pre-wrath position is that the rapture comes before the wrath of God starts. Most people who follow pre-wrath place the wrath starting where I did. The 6th seal, because that's when we are gathered to him in both Matthew and revelation. Many who follow pre-wrath also hold that the verses in Joel, Matthew and revelation that I gave before are all talking about the same event. I was actually at one time in my life pre-trib. Through a lot of prayer and study come to this conclusion based on what the word says. If this is wrong, (which is possible with all the mistakes I make,) then I pray Jesus corrects me and brings me into the light of his truth. I hope this discussion we have had, brings you to a closer understanding of pre-wrath.

May God bless you

Firestormx

Joseph

[Steve_S]

In your above post you said

 

You made the statement:

 

 "Matthew says after that event is when Jesus comes to get us to meet him in the air ( rapture )"

 

Specifically, Matthew says that Jesus said:

 

 29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

(please ignore the weird formatting, i did not so it, that is how it was where I copied it from)

 

is that what you are referring to? If so, I find myself confused again. That passage in unambiguous terms states that

 

1. immediately AFTER the tribulation

 

 

 

I stop it here because the verse does not say after the tribulation, it says after the tribulation of those days. There is a difference, it's referring to the abomination of desolation which just happened and all the fall out from it.

 

I think something colbalt1959 said before comes into play again. I think we just both understand these verses differently

The crux of the pre-wrath position is that the rapture comes before the wrath of God starts. Most people who follow pre-wrath place the wrath starting where I did. The 6th seal, because that's when we are gathered to him in both Matthew and revelation. Many who follow pre-wrath also hold that the verses in Joel, Matthew and revelation that I gave before are all talking about the same event. I was actually at one time in my life pre-trib. Through a lot of prayer and study come to this conclusion based on what the word says. If this is wrong, (which is possible with all the mistakes I make,) then I pray Jesus corrects me and brings me into the light of his truth. I hope this discussion we have had, brings you to a closer understanding of pre-wrath.

May God bless you

Firestormx

Joseph

 

I agree that it appears that the rapture occurs at the 6th seal.

[RedMomma]

Very interesting guys Im seeing both points and I will do more study on this 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

very