JDavis Posted August 18, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,740 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 183 Days Won: 7 Joined: 07/02/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/02/1964 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Diatheosis, You seem to be having the same problem as everyone else. I mean... A rapist's choice to proceed with his obsession is morally equal to going to borrow a cooking book from the library according to this logic If that's seriously what you think my position is, then please go read and I'll also ask: Do you think "right", "wrong", "good", and "bad" are subjective or objective terms? Yes, that is your position. In your second link you stated the only reason we think what Hitler did was wrong is because he lost the war. Thus you saying it is fundamentaly not wrong, but just a matter of opinion. Thus morality is nothing more than opinion, so the above statement is a correct description of your view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diatheosis Posted August 18, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 370 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 91 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2013 Diatheosis, You seem to be having the same problem as everyone else. I mean... A rapist's choice to proceed with his obsession is morally equal to going to borrow a cooking book from the library according to this logic If that's seriously what you think my position is, then please go read I'll also ask: Do you think "right", "wrong", "good", and "bad" are subjective or objective terms? I read those posts, for the second time now. They did not reveal any new information. I know you suggest the culture defines the values and all cultures originate from earlier stages so it's an evolutionary process on many levels. And because of this it's completely a futile attempt to compare those sets of values one to another. Of course, humanity in this sense does not live in a vacuum nowadays in the time of multimedia. I would still like to understand you better as a person. Surely, you are someone with a life to live and I hope you really live it and reach the fullfilment of your goals. But that means, you probably have some preferences in your daily life, things you consider pretty ok, and don't only abide on the realm of abstractions. I do believe there is good and bad, even evil, to which right and wrong deliver us. And more, there is a war going on between these forces which almost tear this world apart. Obviously, if you are not believing in God etc. you see it all caused by completely natural and psychological reasons, and I understand that. In this sense, it makes sense. We have in common the desire to know and understand. I don't know what has brought you on a forum like this, although I really appreciate your contribution here. Is it to 'save' us from our illogical beliefs in something out there? That would mean, you feel like doing us a big favor, and I would understand that too. However, what you feel like getting from here is another thing. I was pretty active during my time as an atheist, and I sure poured lots of energy into convincing anyone there is no God and religions are only to manipulate people (as a believer in God, I can still admit it being so with religions as institutions, although they do also lots of valuable social work). It can also be something else which motivates you, and you know it best regardless of will you share it here. However it was, I respect your contribution as I would probably never had been able to undertake such act on a Christian forum. Hopefully, all turns out ok for you. That you may have it 'good', so to speak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDavis Posted August 18, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,740 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 183 Days Won: 7 Joined: 07/02/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/02/1964 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Oh I see...you're the determinant of what my position is, not me I am just repeating your position. If you stated it incorrectly there is nothing I can do about that. So let me ask you. If Hitler had won world domination and had managed to complete his "final solution", whereby everyone who opposed him was eliminated and everyone in existence today was a Nazi, what would be the view of the morality of his actions? Here is where you go wrong, it does not matter how the actions are viewed, morality is not contingent upon the majority opinion. it is ironic that for other topics you complain about the Appeal to Popularity fallacy, but for morality you use it yourself. If Hitler had won we might view his actions as moral, but that does not make them so. 200 years ago it was seen as moral to own other humans as slaves and treat them in any way you saw fit. It was not moral then, it is not moral know. 70 years ago it was morally acceptable to hold racist points of view. It was not moral then, it is not moral now. The morality Right now it is seen as moral to kill a million babies a year in our country. The fact that the majority think this way does not make this moral. Going back to the example of the rapist above that you complained about, following your line of thinking, if just the one rapist things what he is doing is moral, then it is not. but that same action would be moral if the majority decided it was. that is not morality, that is just majority opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDavis Posted August 18, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,740 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 183 Days Won: 7 Joined: 07/02/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/02/1964 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Neither of you answered the question: Do you think "right", "wrong", "good", and "bad" are subjective or objective terms? From a human perspective, they are clearly subjective. The speed limit is 55, go 65 (which is breaking the law) and you are not really seen as doing anything wrong (most likely you will not get pulled over), go 75 and now you are a crazy driver and deserve to be pulled over. Ted Bundy is not as "bad" as Jeffery Dahamer because Ted didn't eat his victims. Neither of them is a "bad" as Charles Manson. But God sees it differently...God tells us that no one does good, not even one.” This is the problem with using human popular opinion to set what is moral, we will always lean towards that which aids us individually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diatheosis Posted August 19, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 370 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 91 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 Neither of you answered the question: Do you think "right", "wrong", "good", and "bad" are subjective or objective terms? Saying this: "I do believe there is good and bad, even evil, to which right and wrong deliver us" it was my intention to express my understanding it is universal and based on God, thus making it rather objective. Although I a not sure if the definition is adequate when talking about the foundation Almighty has set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted August 23, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,186 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,461 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Neither of you answered the question: Do you think "right", "wrong", "good", and "bad" are subjective or objective terms? In the written Word of God it is explained the basic presupposition of life-> that God 'IS' The Unbound, Eternal Being whereby all else has come into existence by His Power and Will... this can only be established by faith that is built upon His Own Word of Truth called the Bible Genesis thru Revelation The Canon of God's Word to us (mankind)... Therefore right, wrong, good, and bad are established objective truths of God Himself and if we align with Him in His Word we have objective truth established in us but if not aligned we have subjective reasoning that is really lies.... Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diatheosis Posted August 23, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 370 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 91 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 I agree to disagree with you Gerald, our reasoning cannot meet fully although we can understand from where we are coming. Both have backed up the reasoning in the way it makes sense for those who agree and whilst we can see what is being said and why, on the level of experiencing reality we are not on the same level. By level here I do not mean to say one is higher evolved than the other. Just that we have a different glimpse on this amazing reality we are experiencing right now. All I can say, is that I have experienced things that cannot be explained in the classic academic scientific way, not being the only one here, nor in general. You have your reasons for what you believe is true and real, just like everyone does. I respect that, there's no point in trying to force anyone think differently. We have had a good discussion where different views have been expressed, mine apparently have not convinced you to change your view,s neither have your done that to me. But, it is always good to try seeing one's own ideas from a different angle, so I thank you for your contribution as for that and hope we can continue respecting one another as we are. For me God is eternal, our understanding of Him changes because we are finite imperfect evolving beings who lack in understanding but we have our lifetime to learn what it is about to be a human being. For that, no matter what one believes, is quite an adventure, depending of course how you choose to live. But I wish all the best for you, may your life be a fullfillment in the way that is most natural for you from the point of view of the greatest good. As for me, that means to be blessed by my Heavenly Father and walk with Jesus Christ. Does not really matter what someone else thinks of that, for I know because I feel that they live in me through spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Issues But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Matthew 5:44 And Tissues They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him. Psalms 126:5-6 ~ Finally, I'm sure you've heard this from non-Christians before, but when a Christian tells me that the God of the Bible is our source of morality, I cringe a little. Biblical issues that today would be considered "crimes against humanity"... which history shows humans have used as a justification to do the same. I'm not saying you guys would ever do anything like that, but my point is I hope you understand why I don't look to the Christian God as a model for my morality. ~ I But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8 See For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 Sadly But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36 Most Won't Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:14 Praying~! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bestrfcplayer Posted August 28, 2013 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 145 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 29 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2013 I am Christian, though I don't know for how long. I have questions that how an all loving God could send someone to hell for just because they don't believe. Sounds a bit like a tyrant right. I also don't understand why you have to put faith in God above everything else, even your own family and friends. Also, if God is all loving, why did he command the Israelites to burn down a village if only even one person does not believe? These are just my basic thoughts and questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbyPants Posted August 28, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 166 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/27/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2013 I am very interested in knowing how those who do not take God's Word as God's Word think of moral and ethics. What is good, what is bad or evil? What is right and what is wrong? And especially: How do you define and what arguments do you have for your ideas? It's interesting for me to know what kind of views there are, so please satisfy my curiosity I don't have any particularly good answers for defining good and evil, but I also consider them rather abstract concepts. To give you an answer as to why I think it is better for people to cooperate and not harm each other as opposed to behave selfishly is twofold: 1) This first reason could be summed up in the Prisoner's Dilemma. Basically, if you run the math on it, individually, it's in a person's best interest to defect, but if you look at the two as part of a group, the group does better if they both cooperate. Also, if you don't view the conflict as a single event, but rather as a series of events, people would remember past events where you defected and would likely defect against you in the future. So, in short, selfish behavior is almost certainly short-sighted. 2) The second reason is somewhat related to the first, but we get more done when we work together than when we work separately. If we work together, we need to have a framework of trust, otherwise everything falls apart. At the end of the day, my ability to go to Taco Bell and use the Internet as opposed to having to hunt for my own food and defend it from marauders is based on my willingness to cooperate with others and their willingness to cooperate with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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