Speaking in tongues 2

[OneLight]

 

 

Tongues did cease for thousands of years. It got revived about 100 years back. You have no Scripture to indicate that demons hate tongues. I believe many spiritual gifts have continued, and least preferred ones that were local in Corinth have ceased.

Strange you say this.  What gifts came outside of Corinth?  Notice which are listed in 1 Corinthians 12.

 

Please provide scripture that you have formed your belief from so we can see why you believe this way.

 

Peter in Acts 2:38 mentions in singular 'the gift'. He meant the greatest  gift of all, that is, salvation. The gift may include baptism by the Holy Spirit, being born from above, etc.

 

 

Come now, we are speaking of gifts given by the Holy Spirit for the use within the body, not the gift of Salvation, which is what all this is based on.

[OneLight]

That is not what I mean. I believe spiritual gifts are more than what has been listed by Paul. In that I have experienced all the seven gifts in varied degrees. I will never seek the last two as many Pentecostal do since Paul himself doesn't recommend. When the seventh ceases, automatically the last one disappears. We cannot think of one gift dependent on another!

Please explain what you mean above in red.

 

There are 9 gifts, not 7.  You are dismissing the work of the Holy Spirit due to your lack of faith in all of scripture.

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

Arguments made that tongues have ceased because of their supposed disappearance from mention in the epistles and absence in one's personal experience are essentially arguments based on silence - which is by nature a very weak argument to begin with. Although not specifically referring to tongues, Paul stated that the Spirit worked miracles amongst the Galatians - Gal 3:5.  Note that in this verse the Greek verbs are written in the present tense denoting the ongoing continuous nature of Spirit-wrought miracles amongst the Galatians. In other words at the time of Paul's letter, miracles did not cease but continued to occur the Galatian church.  In terms of today, I know a person very well who speaks in tongues.  She has found tongues useful in spiritual warfare - confronting demons (demons hate tongues employed against them) and also has the gift of discernment of spirits - able to identify the occurrence of someone speaking in a false tongue.

Tongues did cease for thousands of years. It got revived about 100 years back. You have no Scripture to indicate that demons hate tongues. I believe many spiritual gifts have continued, and least preferred ones that were  local in Corinth have ceased.

 

Your historical claim has no merit.  Tongues did wane but certain groups throughout history have experienced tongues-speaking: 

Waldenses in 1100's, Albigenses in 1100's, Franciscans in 1200's, Anabaptists in 1500's, Camisards, 1600's and 1700's,  Quakers, 1600's, in England. Jansenists, 1600's and 1700's in France. I did not claim that demons hate tongues based on Scripture - I plainly wrote that it's based on personal experience.

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I think I need to reiterate that one need to distinguish between known and unknown tongues. So, which one you are referring to? What about period before 1100 A.D.?

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

 

1 Corinthians 14:4

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

 

Also, I saw in another post, someone said that it edifies the person. That's correct and in the bible. But, the word edify is a bad translation. When the KJV was written, there was no English word that meant the same thing as the Greek in the text so they translated it edify. But today we have a word that better matches what the Greek says in this verse. It is charge. Like you would charge a battery. A person who speaks in an unknown tongue charges himself. Inside, in the spirit. That it what the verse is saying. Which is why it is ok to still do in your private prayer. We are even told to pray that we might interpret.

 

Firestormx

Joseph

 

The word "edify" is a perfect translation if you understand what edify means. It means to build or to build up. There was no lack of English, although in modern English, we would probably have chosen a word like "builds". An edifice, is a building. Looking in 6 greek lexicons, I see nothing to justify anythng like "charge", where are you getting that?

 

The Greek word in 1 Cor 14:4 is oikodomei, from oikos - a house and domeo - to build.

 

Thank you for bringing in the word 'unknown' in tongue speaking. I have no comments on this.

[Knowingtruth]

I just want to quickly address two things.  First of all, having been in many Pentecostal services over the years, I know how the people would pray out loud in tongues at the same time.  This doesn't cause any problems.  What you would have is a specific time where everyone would be presented with prayer requests, and they would all pray out loud for those requests at the same time in their own words.  Some of the prayers were in their own language, and some in tongues.  Since everyone was busy praying, they weren't bothered by what others were saying, in English or in tongues.  The same thing applies during worship.  If everyone is praising God, they aren't concerned with what others are saying, in English or in tongues.

 

Is it not a similar condition that was noticed in Corinth with regard to communion? Everyone rushing to share the meal and drinks without bothered about others! To me it appears that everyone wants his vioce heard, more louder the better, without bothering to find out what each one has to say as moved by the Holy Spirit. One may have a better insight than the other because of his blessed fellowship with Jesus. Does it not look like a market with sounds of prices being bid? No concern for what another person saying? Is it not a mass movement when our salvation depends on our personal fellowship with the Lord.

 

As for tongues with interpretation, you are always going to have someone get in the flesh and give out a false interpretation.  That is why we have to have discernment to figure out if the message is Biblical?  Ministers also will sometimes preach something in English that is not correct, but we don't look to stop all preaching of the gospel because some messages are less than perfect.  Neither should we seek to stop tongues and interpretation because there are times where someone will say something that is incorrect. 

 

Falsehood is from Satan. In that case, are you going to share the table with him leniently? Preaching wrong concept in a known language, like, English is different. One can discern his limitations and motives based on our Spirit leading. But, you see, he is not pretending that he is speaking through the Holy Spirit with a non-understandable language.

 

Yes a man can speak in the tongues of angels while being mortal and on earth, or at least the Spirit of God can through him. 

 

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, and a tinkling cymbal.  1 Corinthians 13:1

 

I do not think so. It is KJV with its old English usage of the word 'Though'. All well known modern versions have 'If' replacing 'Though'. No matter what, it is seen that Paul is using a hyperbole (exaggeration) to claim that he could speak tongues (plural) of men and of angels. How can he claim to have spoken thousands of tongues(languages of men)? That is an impossibility! Similarly with regard to language of angels. In brief, he was saying even if he did the impossible things of speaking all languages and that of angels, it is useless without 'love'!

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

 

 

This is your OP. In it you present the idea that in Corinth there was a condition of interpretation. However, the assumptions you make are not supported with Scripture IMO. The passages in 1 Cor. and the conditions presented for orderly worship was referring to speaking in tongues in a public venue. So the condition (public venue) to the conduct of orderly worship (public venue) doesn't apply IMO to speaking in tongues as an act of worship in private (personal prayer language). At least I see no Biblical support for what you're saying. Please clarify?

 

I have nothing against personal private prayer. How they do it is not my concern. I am speaking of public prayer in unknown language that may require interpretation. This I believe has ceased with time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The issue here KT is that history disagrees with you - tongues were present throughout church history see post #149 and #153.

 

What type is the moot question?

 

I have many brothers and sisters (in the Body of Christ) some who I know and others who I do not know this side of Christ's second return who speak in their own personal prayer language. I'm sure you do to KT. Some do this often and some do this once or twice in their lifestyle. Regardless, if it brings God glory and edifies the person who am I to tell them how the Holy Spirit is working in their lives?

 

I have never questioned this.

 

 

Here you assert Scripture (The Bible) is limited.

 

Indeed it is! Do we not see limitless expanse of the sky that has no boundries, yet created by God who has no beginning and end? Can the books of the Bible be compared to it?

 

Here you also say the Bible may contain significant errors as parts of it were lost. Innerency simply means the Bible through God's Holy Spirit does not err what it intends to communicate from God to humanity.

 

I am not saying errors have crept in because some manuscrpts were lost. We may have lost some truths with them. Nevertheless, we have enough  information in the Bible for knowing the way to salvation. Translations could be biased that may mislead us. Therefore, truth need to checked from different angles. authors, books, verses versions-- and more than that-- all read with spiritual understanding. You might have heard of 'reading between lines'. That is a rough estimation of reading the Scripture spiritually. Jews were experts in the letter of the Law. Jesus came to show us the spirit behind the Law.

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

 

Where in the Scripture you find this interpretation is going to be given to all churches in future? Is it recorded in other churches during Paul's period?   Much of what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians from chapter 12 onwards was against the use of this speaking in unknown tongue finally indicating that the fruit of the Spirit 'love' should be cultivated.

 

 

 

Really?  Then why does he give very specific rules to the church as to how the gift of tongues is supposed to be both used and not used in chapter 14?  Paul does not write anywhere against the use of tongues.  All he ever says is that if there is no interpreter present after one or two messages in tongues have been given, no more should be given.  He also says the gift of prophesy is more important and perhaps more beneficial than the gift of tongues, but Paul never once says he is against this gift.  he encourages it, as well as using the other gifts, everywhere he speaks of them.  He says very specifically at the end of chapter 14 to NOT forbid the speaking of tongues.  You are contradicting what Paul says.

 

When he said prefer prophesying, it is obvious he  relegated this as least preferred and lists them at the end. As a pragmatic and crafty person he did not apply a sudden break on this trait that was a sign for so many unbelievers in the church at that time. He wished that they would disappear as people grew spiritually. That happened and this type of situation diappeared for thousands of years only to be revived about 100 years back. Should we also bring back the worst conditions of Corinth as a part of this phenomena?

 

 

You know what I find odd?  You never deal directly with anything or any rebuttal of what you claim.  You step around it with more personal opinion.  And you don't seem to have a good working knowledge of the New Testament.  You make statements that can't be biblically supported and yet, you expect people to simply accept what you say, as if it is fact, and always without scriptural support.

 

There is not one single scripture that you could post which would even hint at what you said in the sentence that I highlighted in red.  Paul never talks about the gifts disappearing during the Church Age at all, and if you claim that he did, then the burden lies upon you to actually post scripture, from the Bible, that says that.  Not simply your own personal opinions, which carry zero weight.

 

I cannot show something in the Scripture that happened later. I cannot show it to you that temple got destroyed in the Bible. So, one need to depend on reliable history.Please show me how many apostels, apostolic Fathers, Church Fathers, Popes, Heads of Greek orthodox  and Russian Chuches spoke in unknown tongues.

[Knowingtruth]

 

What Tongues Are For in the Life of the Believer

 

 

Tongues were given as sign for unbelievers. So the title itself is misleading. Again it hardly considers the difference between known and unknown tongues! Praying pesonally in unknown tongue is not the problem. Praying in public is the problem.

 

 

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

 

When he said prefer prophesying, it is obvious he  relegated this as least preferred and lists them at the end. As a pragmatic and crafty person he did not apply a sudden break on this trait that was a sign for so many unbelievers in the church at that time. He wished that they would disappear as people grew spiritually. That happened and this type of situation diappeared for thousands of years only to be revived about 100 years back. Should we also bring back the worst conditions of Corinth as a part of this phenomena?

 

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He says very specifically at the end of chapter 14 to NOT forbid the speaking of tongues.  You are contradicting what Paul says.

 

 

He told that to disorderly Corinthians with their immature and emotional acts. He never intended as something universal. Where does he say one should speak in unknown tongues to join a church for all time to come?

 

You know what I find odd?  You never deal directly with anything or any rebuttal of what you claim.  You step around it with more personal opinion.  And you don't seem to have a good working knowledge of the New Testament.

 

I know for certain that people who speak tongues are master in the knowledge of book of Acts and 1 Corinthians chapter 12-14. They want to follow Paul, not the preaching and practice of Jesus Christ who never spoke unknown tongues so also the apostles.

 

 

You make statements that can't be biblically supported and yet, you expect people to simply accept what you say, as if it is fact, and always without scriptural support.

 

I am not persuading anyone to accept what I say unless they are convinced. Ceasing of tongues is post-Bible. It is silly to search that in the Bible. Paul never said it is found in all future churches.

 

 

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

 

And yet, everyone else in the thread who knows what you claim to be false has posted scripture to actually support what they say.  You make endless statements which are nothing more than personal opinion, and never provide scripture to support it.  You are simply echoing what you have been taught by another person or group, and you do not know how to support it.

 

Epistles were written to specific groups of people, not to you or me. Paul never said that his suggestions are applicable by creating a situation as that of Corinth everywhere! Application is not based by blindly reading  what is recorded for a place and situation!

 

 

 

Paul clearly states that everyone will be given spiritual gifts.  That is one component of the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit.  Paul did not instruct anyone to "seek after" any gift.  The gifts are bestowed, individually, by the Holy Spirit.  No person can "seek" after them.  You can't "learn" to speak in tongues, only pretend.  You are either given the gift, or not.  The same goes with any of the gifts.  

 

Spiritual gifts do not fetch us salvation, rather it is fruit of the Spirit. Why people go after the least desired gift? Is it because it can be faked easily?

 

 

 

Jesus would not have had the need to speak in tongues since He is part of the Godhead.

 

This is your interpretation unsupported by the Bible!

 

 

As for the rest of it, no.  All of the Apostles in the Upper Room, on Pentecost spoke in tongues.

 

You are trying to equate what happened on Pentecost to what was happening in Corinth.

 

 

  

Ever read Mark 16?

 

Do you know that this is different again from Corinthian disorder?

 

 I have seen the gift of tongues in operation.  It isn't fake, and it isn't dead.  That is why Paul stresses having an interpreter so strongly.  Without the interpretation of the message, along the correct perimeters, the message cannot be verified

 

What other proof I need to show that you are believing something that cannot be verified! It is against the word of God to have such blind understanding!

 

 

 

 If it is done according to biblical dictates and in an orderly fashion, just as Paul prescribes, with both a message and an interpretation, it can't be faked with any credence.

 

So you  accept any falsehood as long as it is done in an orderly fashion. Many business enterprises thrive on such techniques!

 

 

 That's why I find it so amusing when people dogmatically state "The gifts are dead and have been for centuries!"  While failing to take into account that small groups have continued to exercise in all these gifts since the church began, and still do so.  The reason the gifts fell by the wayside, for the most part, is because for centuries, the "church" was the victim of a hostile takeover by the RCC and the RCC excised spiritual gifts from it's doctrine pool.  Just as it did with the majority of sound biblical doctrine and replaced it with it's own invented doctrines.

 

Since you do not appear to know the difference between known and unknown tongues, you may not know what you are saying!