thomas t Posted September 28, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/05/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1980 Share Posted September 28, 2013 But Thomas, by your reckoning then, there must be other entities that were not created by God. Powers, principalities, etc? If God is not the all knowing, creator of all, and "something" else also created, then God cannot be "all powerful"? He has at least "something else" that is equal to Him in creating? Fez, let me first say that I was thinking of God's sons mentioned in Job, when I wrote "his sons" in my last post. Now to your answer. It is written that God created (Col. 1:16 KJV): For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: By this we know that, besides physical things, God also created thrones, dominions, principalities, powers. But is Satan included in one of these items? I don't have the answer. As to your question: God is all powerful, the rest I can't answer and I don't bother to do. However I do think that not having created Satan is not the same as not being all powelful. (three times a "not", I hope I still write in a comprehensible manner). If God is not the all knowing, creator of all, and "something" else also created, then God cannot be "all powerful"? omniscience. That's the second thing that people, in my opinion, have difficulty in showing by scripture. Does scripture say that God was omniscient at all moments of time? I don't think so. I don't see this passage nor the combination of several that shows it. Even if so many Chrsitians say he was. God certainly is able to know everything, but I don't see why not knowing everything at all points of time, in my opinion, should preclude God from being able to know everything. Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted September 28, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Thomas, If satan is not a creation of God, what was he doing in heaven? Job_1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. Are you saying that satan is able to inhabit heaven when and how he see's fit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted September 29, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 545 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 116 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/16/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 29, 2013 The Lord created ALL things...not some things all things. Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas t Posted September 29, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/05/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1980 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Thomas, If satan is not a creation of God, what was he doing in heaven? Job_1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. Are you saying that satan is able to inhabit heaven when and how he see's fit? Fez, I don't ask myself this sort of questions, so I don't have an answer for this. When I think that the Bible isn't clear about one question, I don't ask myself any follow-up questions. I think that the Bible does not give answers to all questions that could possibly be asked. The Bible, as I see it, just provides enough answers for us. And I also think, that if the Bible isn't clear about a (theological) subject, this subject is not important for us to know. If it was, God would have written a clear answer into the Bible. Enjoy your day, Thomas Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkins Posted September 30, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2013 Ezekiel 28:13-17 (NIV) 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared.14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. It is a Cherub in Eden. There's no direct linking between Satan and angel, however, the Cherub in Eden can be clear enough that the verses refer to Satan. The dragon/serpent in Eden is Satan. Revelation 20:2 (NIV2011) 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Satan came from the Kingdom of God, good angel turned bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted September 30, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Thomas, If satan is not a creation of God, what was he doing in heaven? Job_1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. Are you saying that satan is able to inhabit heaven when and how he see's fit? Fez, I don't ask myself this sort of questions, so I don't have an answer for this. When I think that the Bible isn't clear about one question, I don't ask myself any follow-up questions. I think that the Bible does not give answers to all questions that could possibly be asked. The Bible, as I see it, just provides enough answers for us. And I also think, that if the Bible isn't clear about a (theological) subject, this subject is not important for us to know. If it was, God would have written a clear answer into the Bible. Enjoy your day, Thomas Thomas When I think that the Bible isn't clear about one question, I don't ask myself any follow-up questions. But Thomas there are numerous examples of you asking follow up questions when you think the bible is not clear? Your comments about satan being just one. and Does scripture say that God was omniscient at all moments of time? I don't think so. I don't see this passage nor the combination of several that shows it. Even if so many Chrsitians say he was. I don't know of any on Worthy (or my church. or our relating churches) that say He is not Thomas. your comment would seem to say that He is not? Is that what you are saying? God is not omniscient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diatheosis Posted September 30, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 370 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 91 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2013 Good morning Sheba and other fellow-posters, I think that this topic is worth being brought up again. My opinion is, as was in the other thread, that it can't be shown in scripture that Satan is a creation from God. The above mentioned passage of Ezekiel speaks of Tyre and calls this town a cherub, whereas Satan isn't explicitely mentioned. There is no scripture saying that Satan is a cherub, at least I don't find any. Some argue that they see similarities between the Ezekiel passage and Luke 10:18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. [...]" Tyre fell, so did Satan. But it isn't said that there can be only one entity that is able to fall. Even if some think of a strong allusion concerning the Ezekiel passage, the impression of an allusion doesn't prove anything. I am not saying that I can show where Satan came from, btw.. Have a good day Thomas If Satan did not come from God's act of creating, this thought logically leads to a) Satan is some kind of creator himself, self-existent B) there is another source beside God the Father and the Word and The Holy Spirit. But how could that be? Following this logic would totally dismantle God's sovereign position as the Almighty. Are different existing entities or manifestations of (personal) awareness popping out ex nihilo, out of nothing? How does that relate to God as the first cause and the ultimate source of the whole existence. This logic does not lead to any cohesive conclusion, since there apparently is a tension between Satan and God which is reality in this world. If Satan originates from another source of existence, is it somewhere behinds God's back, so to say? I still cannot follow that logic. Jesus said every hair in your head is counted so probably God is pretty well aware of what is going on, since He is above space and time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted September 30, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Good morning Sheba and other fellow-posters, I think that this topic is worth being brought up again. My opinion is, as was in the other thread, that it can't be shown in scripture that Satan is a creation from God. The above mentioned passage of Ezekiel speaks of Tyre and calls this town a cherub, whereas Satan isn't explicitely mentioned. There is no scripture saying that Satan is a cherub, at least I don't find any. Some argue that they see similarities between the Ezekiel passage and Luke 10:18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. [...]" Tyre fell, so did Satan. But it isn't said that there can be only one entity that is able to fall. Even if some think of a strong allusion concerning the Ezekiel passage, the impression of an allusion doesn't prove anything. I am not saying that I can show where Satan came from, btw.. Have a good day Thomas If Satan did not come from God's act of creating, this thought logically leads to a) Satan is some kind of creator himself, self-existent B) there is another source beside God the Father and the Word and The Holy Spirit. But how could that be? Following this logic would totally dismantle God's sovereign position as the Almighty. Are different existing entities or manifestations of (personal) awareness popping out ex nihilo, out of nothing? How does that relate to God as the first cause and the ultimate source of the whole existence. This logic does not lead to any cohesive conclusion, since there apparently is a tension between Satan and God which is reality in this world. If Satan originates from another source of existence, is it somewhere behinds God's back, so to say? I still cannot follow that logic. Jesus said every hair in your head is counted so probably God is pretty well aware of what is going on, since He is above space and time. Amen to that. Thomas I invite you to answer my question in post #18? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas t Posted October 2, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/05/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1980 Share Posted October 2, 2013 When I think that the Bible isn't clear about one question, I don't ask myself any follow-up questions. (1) But Thomas there are numerous examples of you asking follow up questions when you think the bible is not clear? Your comments about satan being just one. and Does scripture say that God was omniscient at all moments of time? I don't think so. I don't see this passage nor the combination of several that shows it. Even if so many Chrsitians say he was. (2) I don't know of any on Worthy (or my church. or our relating churches) that say He is not Thomas. your comment would seem to say that He is not? Is that what you are saying? God is not omniscient? (1) Look Fez: I don't recall any of this. Could you provide an example of a comment I gave? The only thing I wanted to point out is that something cannot be proven. (2) No. I don't say that. I just say this: it cannot be proven using scripture that God has been allknowing at any point in time. (If people want to provi it now, I hope they keep short..) added numbers to your post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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