a-seeker Posted February 1, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 589 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/06/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) Lets let him tell us himself:::: Matt 25:31-46 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." NIV Interesting.... so you advocate that anyone who does good works (i.e. obeys their conscience, and is altruistic) will be acknowledged by Christ? I am not retorting! I merely wish to know, I promise. clb I'm saying that Jesus makes that decision and I don't have a clue except for what I read in the Bible itself. We know what to do to be pretty sure how to be with him, but it just isn't our business to start telling someone they can or can't spend eternity with the Lord no matter who they are...... or who we are..... The Bible only offers salvation to those who accept Jesus and are born again. Jesus said that we must be born again to enter the Kingdom. There is no salvation available for anyone outside of Christ. In the Scripture you provide above, the sheep are doing what the do because they are sheep. It is the outgrowth of their nature. They are not sheep because of what they did; rather, what they did revealed that they are sheep. Same with the goats. Salvation isn't ever based on what you do or don't do. What you do or don't do reveals if you were ever saved in the first place. Our works are the outgrowth of our relationship with Jesus. They don't procure that relationship. Curious, what do you do (I brought this up elsewhere but perhaps it was irrelevant) with those before Christ whose faith in God (YHWH) is hardly questioned: Abraham, Issac....Moses....those kings who "walked in the way of David".....Joseph the Paternal guardian of Jesus....John the Baptist who died still slightly confused about the vocation of this Messiah..... I have no doubt that you can speculate on any individual case "proving" that they did believe in Jesus.........take the gist of the question. clb Edited February 1, 2014 by ConnorLiamBrown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Curious, what do you do (I brought this up elsewhere but perhaps it was irrelevant) with those before Christ whose faith in God (YHWH) is hardly questioned: Abraham, Issac....Moses....those kings who "walked in the way of David".....Joseph the Paternal guardian of Jesus....John the Baptist who died still slightly confused about the vocation of this Messiah..... I have no doubt that you can speculate on any individual case "proving" that they did believe in Jesus.........take the gist of the question. clb Well salvation in the Old Testament was received the same way it is received today: By grace through faith. Faith comes through word preached (Rom. 10:17) Those in the Old Testament that placed their faith in God, who walked in the light that they had prior to the cross, their faith was credited to them as righteousness, the same as it is today for us who place our faith directly in the Person of Jesus Christ. In the OT, they placed their faith in the promise to come, they believed God and God counted it as righteousness to them. That is where their salvation came from before the cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray wolf Posted February 2, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,046 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 194 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/25/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/30/1960 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 Then we"d better get on the stick. Multitudes perish who have never heard and face a Christless eternity. There are no simple answers. We must trust that God is in control and will not condemn those who had no chance. But I dare not venture as to how mercy is bestowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-seeker Posted February 2, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 589 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/06/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2, 2014 Curious, what do you do (I brought this up elsewhere but perhaps it was irrelevant) with those before Christ whose faith in God (YHWH) is hardly questioned: Abraham, Issac....Moses....those kings who "walked in the way of David".....Joseph the Paternal guardian of Jesus....John the Baptist who died still slightly confused about the vocation of this Messiah..... I have no doubt that you can speculate on any individual case "proving" that they did believe in Jesus.........take the gist of the question. clb Well salvation in the Old Testament was received the same way it is received today: By grace through faith. Faith comes through word preached (Rom. 10:17) Those in the Old Testament that placed their faith in God, who walked in the light that they had prior to the cross, their faith was credited to them as righteousness, the same as it is today for us who place our faith directly in the Person of Jesus Christ. That does raise some questions: 1) What about Jews today who place their faith in God? 2) Will the patriarchs ever have a "personal" relationship with Christ; and if so (I'm assuming a "yes" from you) when will that take place? clb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 The Patriarchs And The Christ Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:8-10 My Beloved Brothers (And Sisters) ~ That does raise some questions: 1) What about Jews today who place their faith in God? 2) Will the patriarchs ever have a "personal" relationship with Christ; and if so (I'm assuming a "yes" from you) when will that take place? ~ Then Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Hebrews 11:1-2 And I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Romans 11:1-5 Now Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. Romans 9:27-28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Curious, what do you do (I brought this up elsewhere but perhaps it was irrelevant) with those before Christ whose faith in God (YHWH) is hardly questioned: Abraham, Issac....Moses....those kings who "walked in the way of David".....Joseph the Paternal guardian of Jesus....John the Baptist who died still slightly confused about the vocation of this Messiah..... I have no doubt that you can speculate on any individual case "proving" that they did believe in Jesus.........take the gist of the question. clb Well salvation in the Old Testament was received the same way it is received today: By grace through faith. Faith comes through word preached (Rom. 10:17) Those in the Old Testament that placed their faith in God, who walked in the light that they had prior to the cross, their faith was credited to them as righteousness, the same as it is today for us who place our faith directly in the Person of Jesus Christ. That does raise some questions: 1) What about Jews today who place their faith in God? 2) Will the patriarchs ever have a "personal" relationship with Christ; and if so (I'm assuming a "yes" from you) when will that take place? clb 1. No one who refuses to place their faith in Jesus is saved. There is no salvation for man from God, outside of Jesus. There are no alternative plans of salvation. Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc., all must come through Jesus to be saved. Jews of today are not followers of God as much as they are followers of Jewish law/Talmud. The Torah/Talmud is their righteousness and is what they believe is the source of eternal life. They are putting more faith in their keeping of the Torah/Talmud than they are in God. 2. The Bible says that our faith, just like faith of the Patriarchs is credited us as righteousness. The relationship was already there. Jesus was/is God. You cannot have a personal relatioship with the Father outside of Jesus and this true in the Old and New Testament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyAngeL Posted February 2, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 23 Topic Count: 155 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,464 Content Per Day: 1.02 Reputation: 8,810 Days Won: 57 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/12/1952 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Fair enough. God judges the heart of a person. God, when He created each of us, placed in our hearts the knowledge of what is right and wrong. We call this our conscience. If we do something that we know in our heart that is wrong, we feel is as He tries to turn us back onto the right path. If we reject His guidance, our heart becomes harder, weakening the affect of our conscience. Continuing to do this will create a heart of stone within us where we refuse Him all together. The difference from the beginning to the end is what He judges. We begin with Him and through our choices, go down one or two paths ... toward God or away from God. Thanks for your response. So, God judges people who haven't read the Bible by their actions - whether they do what is right - but judges people who have read the Bible by whether or not they believe it is true, regardless of their actions? God judges on sin. Once we have come into a relationship with Christ our sins our under the blood of Jesus and His finished work on the cross, past , present and future. We need to ask forgiveness daily but we as believers in Jesus will never be judged again for our sins. We as Christians will be judged on what we have done with our lives after we have accepted Jesus as savior. We are to go out and win a lost and dying world. As for the ones that reject Jesus and His word, yes they will be judged on their sins and again the ones who reject Jesus will spend eternity in hell. These are not my words but God's himself. I think you already know this and I hope that you will listen and receive God's promise through His Son Jesus and know for sure you are going to Heaven for eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted February 3, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 3, 2014 It's really very simple. John 3:16-18 (KJV) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Everyone is already condemned to hell and only belief in Jesus can change this. And rather than quibbling over if folks actually go to hell or why there is only one way... we should rather be grateful that there even is one way! And then spread the Gospel like the only water on a global conflagration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted February 3, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 3, 2014 I was watching a video of Sam Harris criticizing Christians for believing that all believers in other faiths wind up in Hell, since Christianity is the only Way. I got to thinking about it and the verse John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." I have long thought that this meant all (even decent) people of other faiths wind up in Hell for not believing on Him, even though they never heard the Gospel. But this is one interpretation of the verse. I have come around to considering what sends someone to Hell. It is rejection of Christ. These hundreds of millions of people did not have the chance, so why should we interpret the verse to mean that God will not provide a chance for them in a mysterious way? This is known as Inclusivism; many Christians, including CS Lewis thought this way, as do I. Exclusivism is the former idea. I have taken much chastisement for holding this view, but I think it is the only rational way in accordance with the Love of God to answer this perplexing issue. I am a very enthusiastic supporter of missionary efforts and this view does not diminish the urgency of the Gospel at all. Let me know what you think. Awesome thought provoking thread wolf. My two cents- I hope so. I hope God gives these people who have not REJECTED Christ a chance to ACCEPT him. Something tells me though that if you have not accepted Christ before death, that may be all folks. As for where do I think people who don't believe in Christ but who have not rejected him go upon death, I don't know. That's exclusively gods business. Most mysteries are solved when we put the omniscient mind of God in the equation. God knows who would believe and sees to it that they have a witness. Be it a person or a particular life or place in history that they will receive this. This is one reason history is taking so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray wolf Posted February 3, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,046 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 194 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/25/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/30/1960 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 that sounds almost Calvinistic in concept. Are you saying that a person who perishes without Christ never having heard,would not have believed in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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