The Amish

[alphaparticle]

 

 

 

I've noticed several people holding up the amish a some kind of  model community lately, and I have to admit, I find this baffling. This is a group that shuns those who leave the community, that demand adherence to a strict set of complicated rules to be in good standing at the community and the thought that God will allow them into heaven based on how well they do at following these rules. There are rules about how men have to wear their beards, the allowed color of clothing, against belts. Their young people are poorly educated, so that if they do want to leave, they are at a huge disadvantage. Not to mention, they do not evangelize as we are commanded to. I also find it strange that these people are lauded as a model on an internet forum, which they are forbidden to use. It's not a matter of personal choice here, they are forbidden to by their community if they want to remain in the place they grew up, around their family, for the only life they were really prepared for at all. What is so fantastic about this? If you crave simplicity, why not just create that? If you feel that wearing simpler more covering clothes would be better, why not just do that? I don't think holding this group up though is a good idea.

 

Check out this below:

http://web.missouri....udduthfs00.html

 

"Indeed, the Amish believe that the entire purpose of this life is to prepare for the life to come by overcoming their corrupt human nature. Not only does this process take most people an entire lifetime to complete, one's salvation must always be in question (Hartman). A person overcomes his or her sinfulness by yielding to the church authority structure, a concept known as Gelassenheit (Kraybill 102). If one obeys the church leaders, who are God's mouthpieces, or the rules those leaders establish under divine guidance, one is disobeying God Himself. To borrow a Buddhist term, the church is the Mahayana, or "great vehicle," used to bring people to salvation, and all those not on board have no hope of achieving eternal life. It is only available through the guidance and authority of the Amish faith."

 

One obeys church leaders, if they don't, they are disobeying God Himself. This is disturbing.

I have spent a lot of time looking into the Amish beliefs.  There have been times I have considered converting to being Amish, or at least Beachy Amish.  Recently I watched a video at YouTube about the Amish that was produced by the BBC.  There was one Amish family that consented to allowing them to be filmed because they felt like they should spread the faith.  This was in opposition to the elders opposition to being filmed and put them at risk of being put out of the church. 

 

For the most part, I agree with the way they live.  What surprised me was that they all knew their Bible.  Even the children were smart in the Word.  The family was in Biblical order.  When I started watching the program, my first concern was over the family choosing to disobey the elders, as that is rebellion, and rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.  At the same time, the reason they disobeyed the elders was to obey Christ's command to share the gospel, and Christ is higher than human leaders. 

 

There are reasons for what they teach.  I don't necessarily agree all of these things are necessary to salvation, but there is nothing wrong with them.  I have always opposed compulsory education, so I have no issue with Amish children not always being that far along in their studies, but I would point out that I went to school with High School seniors that could barely read, yet they still got a Diploma.  They just put those struggling into easy classes, and push them along.  They don't have cars for two reasons.  One reason is that they feel it is better that everyone be a close knit community, and limiting the distance they can easily travel keeps them that way.  The other reason is so they won't be prideful over their automobile.  Do I feel this is necessary?  No, but neither do I have an issue with it. 

 

The Amish people don't have electricity, and that protects them from the bad influences of the media, as well as time wasting activities.  I come in contact with Amish people while traveling in Ohio, Indiana and Pennsylvania, and I have a great deal of respect for them.  I do believe the way they live is much more Biblical than the way most people live.  Yes, they do put people out of the church for rebellion against the authorities, and they are not to eat with those people or have close contact with them, but they know the rules.  None of this comes by surprise.  My view is that any church has a right to place any rules on the congregation they want, and this is a free nation and if we don't like them, we can go elsewhere.  If we choose to be part of a strict community like the Amish, then we should abide by their rules. 

 

I mentioned the distinction with them and the Beachy Amish.  They have many of the same standards, but don't shun all modern conveniences, like cars and electricity.  I feel like I would be more likely to join that type of Amish if I was to go that far.  They also do believe in evangelizing, unlike the older order of Amish.  You say you don't understand people admiring the Amish because of a list of things you don't agree with.  In my case, I have no problem with any church being extremely legalistic, and even find it preferable to the liberal churches.  In my case, the things that bother you don't bother me. 

 

The part that I find offensive about 'legalism' is when the following of minutiae is tied up with salvation. If people choose to do such and such, go off the grid, whatever, that is their business. When they form communities that demand that everyone do that, or that they might go to hell, I have a problem with that.

 

I also find the linking between shunning technology with 'saltiness' or 'light' or 'fruits'. These seem, on the surface, fairly unrelated to me.

 

They don't seem to tie their lifestyle to salvation, at least to the point of saying everyone outside their community is lost.  It is not the shunning and lack of technology in and of itself that is salt and light to me, but the fact they have really come out from among the world, along with the heathen culture. 

 

Yes except that they do teach that adhering to their rules is a part of earning their way into heaven. They aren't the only ones who 'detach from heathen culture', you can find extremist groups everywhere and with every theology under the sun who do that. That part does not interest or impress me.

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

 

I've noticed several people holding up the amish a some kind of  model community lately, and I have to admit, I find this baffling. This is a group that shuns those who leave the community, that demand adherence to a strict set of complicated rules to be in good standing at the community and the thought that God will allow them into heaven based on how well they do at following these rules. There are rules about how men have to wear their beards, the allowed color of clothing, against belts. Their young people are poorly educated, so that if they do want to leave, they are at a huge disadvantage. Not to mention, they do not evangelize as we are commanded to. I also find it strange that these people are lauded as a model on an internet forum, which they are forbidden to use. It's not a matter of personal choice here, they are forbidden to by their community if they want to remain in the place they grew up, around their family, for the only life they were really prepared for at all. What is so fantastic about this? If you crave simplicity, why not just create that? If you feel that wearing simpler more covering clothes would be better, why not just do that? I don't think holding this group up though is a good idea.

 

Check out this below:

http://web.missouri....udduthfs00.html

 

"Indeed, the Amish believe that the entire purpose of this life is to prepare for the life to come by overcoming their corrupt human nature. Not only does this process take most people an entire lifetime to complete, one's salvation must always be in question (Hartman). A person overcomes his or her sinfulness by yielding to the church authority structure, a concept known as Gelassenheit (Kraybill 102). If one obeys the church leaders, who are God's mouthpieces, or the rules those leaders establish under divine guidance, one is disobeying God Himself. To borrow a Buddhist term, the church is the Mahayana, or "great vehicle," used to bring people to salvation, and all those not on board have no hope of achieving eternal life. It is only available through the guidance and authority of the Amish faith."

 

One obeys church leaders, if they don't, they are disobeying God Himself. This is disturbing.

I have spent a lot of time looking into the Amish beliefs.  There have been times I have considered converting to being Amish, or at least Beachy Amish.  Recently I watched a video at YouTube about the Amish that was produced by the BBC.  There was one Amish family that consented to allowing them to be filmed because they felt like they should spread the faith.  This was in opposition to the elders opposition to being filmed and put them at risk of being put out of the church. 

 

For the most part, I agree with the way they live.  What surprised me was that they all knew their Bible.  Even the children were smart in the Word.  The family was in Biblical order.  When I started watching the program, my first concern was over the family choosing to disobey the elders, as that is rebellion, and rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.  At the same time, the reason they disobeyed the elders was to obey Christ's command to share the gospel, and Christ is higher than human leaders. 

 

There are reasons for what they teach.  I don't necessarily agree all of these things are necessary to salvation, but there is nothing wrong with them.  I have always opposed compulsory education, so I have no issue with Amish children not always being that far along in their studies, but I would point out that I went to school with High School seniors that could barely read, yet they still got a Diploma.  They just put those struggling into easy classes, and push them along.  They don't have cars for two reasons.  One reason is that they feel it is better that everyone be a close knit community, and limiting the distance they can easily travel keeps them that way.  The other reason is so they won't be prideful over their automobile.  Do I feel this is necessary?  No, but neither do I have an issue with it. 

 

The Amish people don't have electricity, and that protects them from the bad influences of the media, as well as time wasting activities.  I come in contact with Amish people while traveling in Ohio, Indiana and Pennsylvania, and I have a great deal of respect for them.  I do believe the way they live is much more Biblical than the way most people live.  Yes, they do put people out of the church for rebellion against the authorities, and they are not to eat with those people or have close contact with them, but they know the rules.  None of this comes by surprise.  My view is that any church has a right to place any rules on the congregation they want, and this is a free nation and if we don't like them, we can go elsewhere.  If we choose to be part of a strict community like the Amish, then we should abide by their rules. 

 

I mentioned the distinction with them and the Beachy Amish.  They have many of the same standards, but don't shun all modern conveniences, like cars and electricity.  I feel like I would be more likely to join that type of Amish if I was to go that far.  They also do believe in evangelizing, unlike the older order of Amish.  You say you don't understand people admiring the Amish because of a list of things you don't agree with.  In my case, I have no problem with any church being extremely legalistic, and even find it preferable to the liberal churches.  In my case, the things that bother you don't bother me. 

 

The part that I find offensive about 'legalism' is when the following of minutiae is tied up with salvation. If people choose to do such and such, go off the grid, whatever, that is their business. When they form communities that demand that everyone do that, or that they might go to hell, I have a problem with that.

 

I also find the linking between shunning technology with 'saltiness' or 'light' or 'fruits'. These seem, on the surface, fairly unrelated to me.

 

They don't seem to tie their lifestyle to salvation, at least to the point of saying everyone outside their community is lost.  It is not the shunning and lack of technology in and of itself that is salt and light to me, but the fact they have really come out from among the world, along with the heathen culture. 

 

Yes except that they do teach that adhering to their rules is a part of earning their way into heaven. They aren't the only ones who 'detach from heathen culture', you can find extremist groups everywhere and with every theology under the sun who do that. That part does not interest or impress me.

 

Everyone has a differen't belief when it comes to "earning their way into heaven" and what exactly that means?  For instance, I don't believe anyone can be saved without faith in Christ, but at the same time, I don't believe one can continue to live in wilful sin and remain saved.  The Bible states that faith without works is dead.  Others consider "earning their way into heaven" to mean we simply turn over a new leaf and do our best to be saved, with or without Christ.  I don't believe that, and neither do the Amish.  Some believe that salvation is nothing more than believing in Jesus, and you can continue to live like a sinner and remain saved, and anything else is legalism.  I reject that.  Even the devils believe in Jesus.  The Amish show a change in lifestyle because of their faith, which is what James tells us is required. 

[alphaparticle]

 

 

 

 

 

I've noticed several people holding up the amish a some kind of  model community lately, and I have to admit, I find this baffling. This is a group that shuns those who leave the community, that demand adherence to a strict set of complicated rules to be in good standing at the community and the thought that God will allow them into heaven based on how well they do at following these rules. There are rules about how men have to wear their beards, the allowed color of clothing, against belts. Their young people are poorly educated, so that if they do want to leave, they are at a huge disadvantage. Not to mention, they do not evangelize as we are commanded to. I also find it strange that these people are lauded as a model on an internet forum, which they are forbidden to use. It's not a matter of personal choice here, they are forbidden to by their community if they want to remain in the place they grew up, around their family, for the only life they were really prepared for at all. What is so fantastic about this? If you crave simplicity, why not just create that? If you feel that wearing simpler more covering clothes would be better, why not just do that? I don't think holding this group up though is a good idea.

 

Check out this below:

http://web.missouri....udduthfs00.html

 

"Indeed, the Amish believe that the entire purpose of this life is to prepare for the life to come by overcoming their corrupt human nature. Not only does this process take most people an entire lifetime to complete, one's salvation must always be in question (Hartman). A person overcomes his or her sinfulness by yielding to the church authority structure, a concept known as Gelassenheit (Kraybill 102). If one obeys the church leaders, who are God's mouthpieces, or the rules those leaders establish under divine guidance, one is disobeying God Himself. To borrow a Buddhist term, the church is the Mahayana, or "great vehicle," used to bring people to salvation, and all those not on board have no hope of achieving eternal life. It is only available through the guidance and authority of the Amish faith."

 

One obeys church leaders, if they don't, they are disobeying God Himself. This is disturbing.

I have spent a lot of time looking into the Amish beliefs.  There have been times I have considered converting to being Amish, or at least Beachy Amish.  Recently I watched a video at YouTube about the Amish that was produced by the BBC.  There was one Amish family that consented to allowing them to be filmed because they felt like they should spread the faith.  This was in opposition to the elders opposition to being filmed and put them at risk of being put out of the church. 

 

For the most part, I agree with the way they live.  What surprised me was that they all knew their Bible.  Even the children were smart in the Word.  The family was in Biblical order.  When I started watching the program, my first concern was over the family choosing to disobey the elders, as that is rebellion, and rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.  At the same time, the reason they disobeyed the elders was to obey Christ's command to share the gospel, and Christ is higher than human leaders. 

 

There are reasons for what they teach.  I don't necessarily agree all of these things are necessary to salvation, but there is nothing wrong with them.  I have always opposed compulsory education, so I have no issue with Amish children not always being that far along in their studies, but I would point out that I went to school with High School seniors that could barely read, yet they still got a Diploma.  They just put those struggling into easy classes, and push them along.  They don't have cars for two reasons.  One reason is that they feel it is better that everyone be a close knit community, and limiting the distance they can easily travel keeps them that way.  The other reason is so they won't be prideful over their automobile.  Do I feel this is necessary?  No, but neither do I have an issue with it. 

 

The Amish people don't have electricity, and that protects them from the bad influences of the media, as well as time wasting activities.  I come in contact with Amish people while traveling in Ohio, Indiana and Pennsylvania, and I have a great deal of respect for them.  I do believe the way they live is much more Biblical than the way most people live.  Yes, they do put people out of the church for rebellion against the authorities, and they are not to eat with those people or have close contact with them, but they know the rules.  None of this comes by surprise.  My view is that any church has a right to place any rules on the congregation they want, and this is a free nation and if we don't like them, we can go elsewhere.  If we choose to be part of a strict community like the Amish, then we should abide by their rules. 

 

I mentioned the distinction with them and the Beachy Amish.  They have many of the same standards, but don't shun all modern conveniences, like cars and electricity.  I feel like I would be more likely to join that type of Amish if I was to go that far.  They also do believe in evangelizing, unlike the older order of Amish.  You say you don't understand people admiring the Amish because of a list of things you don't agree with.  In my case, I have no problem with any church being extremely legalistic, and even find it preferable to the liberal churches.  In my case, the things that bother you don't bother me. 

 

The part that I find offensive about 'legalism' is when the following of minutiae is tied up with salvation. If people choose to do such and such, go off the grid, whatever, that is their business. When they form communities that demand that everyone do that, or that they might go to hell, I have a problem with that.

 

I also find the linking between shunning technology with 'saltiness' or 'light' or 'fruits'. These seem, on the surface, fairly unrelated to me.

 

They don't seem to tie their lifestyle to salvation, at least to the point of saying everyone outside their community is lost.  It is not the shunning and lack of technology in and of itself that is salt and light to me, but the fact they have really come out from among the world, along with the heathen culture. 

 

Yes except that they do teach that adhering to their rules is a part of earning their way into heaven. They aren't the only ones who 'detach from heathen culture', you can find extremist groups everywhere and with every theology under the sun who do that. That part does not interest or impress me.

 

Everyone has a differen't belief when it comes to "earning their way into heaven" and what exactly that means?  For instance, I don't believe anyone can be saved without faith in Christ, but at the same time, I don't believe one can continue to live in wilful sin and remain saved.  The Bible states that faith without works is dead.  Others consider "earning their way into heaven" to mean we simply turn over a new leaf and do our best to be saved, with or without Christ.  I don't believe that, and neither do the Amish.  Some believe that salvation is nothing more than believing in Jesus, and you can continue to live like a sinner and remain saved, and anything else is legalism.  I reject that.  Even the devils believe in Jesus.  The Amish show a change in lifestyle because of their faith, which is what James tells us is required. 

 

Their communities require that they follow rules which have no basis in scripture whatsoever. Whether or not I have a belt has nothing to do with whether or not I am responding to God in my life. This is the point at which things become negative. Further, there should be no sense that a particular community with peculiar rules has anything to do with my soteriological status.

[Guest Butero]

I am answering you without the quotes because the posts are getting too long.  All those things aren't required for salvation, anymore than selling all you have and having all things common as some did in the book of Acts was a salvation issue, but people are free to choose to live that way and follow those rules.  If they do make that choice, that is their business.  I have been part of churches with rules that they called "disciplines," and when I willingly chose to join, I was required to follow them, even if I thought them to be silly? 

[alphaparticle]

I am answering you without the quotes because the posts are getting too long.  All those things aren't required for salvation, anymore than selling all you have and having all things common as some did in the book of Acts was a salvation issue, but people are free to choose to live that way and follow those rules.  If they do make that choice, that is their business.  I have been part of churches with rules that they called "disciplines," and when I willingly chose to join, I was required to follow them, even if I thought them to be silly? 

Did they claim you might go to hell if you don't adhere to a dress code that forbids certain kinds of fasteners?

[Guest Butero]

 

I am answering you without the quotes because the posts are getting too long.  All those things aren't required for salvation, anymore than selling all you have and having all things common as some did in the book of Acts was a salvation issue, but people are free to choose to live that way and follow those rules.  If they do make that choice, that is their business.  I have been part of churches with rules that they called "disciplines," and when I willingly chose to join, I was required to follow them, even if I thought them to be silly? 

Did they claim you might go to hell if you don't adhere to a dress code that forbids certain kinds of fasteners?

 

Not at that church, but I have been affiliated loosely with a church that says you won't go in the rapture if you dress a certain way?  I have no problem with that, since nearly every church has some type of standard when it comes to the way we dress.  Some are much stricter than others, but nearly all have some standards.  Most will have standards dealing with desency, and as a guy, try going to a church wearing a dress and see what they say?  I would go so far as to say they would question your salvation if you continued to dress that way. 

[Micheal Westin]

I'm not sure what the beef is about, you know full well that the rules the Amish say will send them to hell are false, what's the big deal if they keep rules that will not make a difference, they still will go to heaven! isn't that what the whole race to the finish line is all about, receiving the prize, so they jumped a bunch of extra hurdles, maybe ran up and down a few unnecessary hills, I would conclude going the extra mile to be a safer bet than what the liberal Christianity tries to sell, and will find themselves being called workers of iniquity on the day of judgment

for they were taught not to overcome sin but to simply live in it as if it were not sin, or that living in sin is covered by the blood 

[alphaparticle]

I'm not sure what the beef is about, you know full well that the rules the Amish say will send them to hell are false, what's the big deal if they keep rules that will not make a difference, they still will go to heaven! isn't that what the whole race to the finish line is all about, receiving the prize, so they jumped a bunch of extra hurdles, maybe ran up and down a few unnecessary hills, I would conclude going the extra mile to be a safer bet than what the liberal Christianity tries to sell, and will find themselves being called workers of iniquity on the day of judgment

for they were taught not to overcome sin but to simply live in it as if it were not sin, or that living in sin is covered by the blood 

The big deal is that they are teaching false things about the gospel.

 

gal 1:8

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

 

Jesus, His apostles, did not preach a gospel which included shunning the technology of the civilization around them or suggest that failing to adhere to complex rules leading to excommunication is tied up in the salvation of people.

[Qnts2]

I'm not sure what the beef is about, you know full well that the rules the Amish say will send them to hell are false, what's the big deal if they keep rules that will not make a difference, they still will go to heaven! isn't that what the whole race to the finish line is all about, receiving the prize, so they jumped a bunch of extra hurdles, maybe ran up and down a few unnecessary hills, I would conclude going the extra mile to be a safer bet than what the liberal Christianity tries to sell, and will find themselves being called workers of iniquity on the day of judgment

for they were taught not to overcome sin but to simply live in it as if it were not sin, or that living in sin is covered by the blood 

 

If there are a bunch of rules a person is told to keep to achieve salvation, then they are likely to strive to keep the rules, and if they convince themselves that they are successful, then they will believe they are going to heaven. Unfortunately, except for faith in Jesus, following any rules will not cause a person to be saved. Rules can change the focus from faith to their own actions.

 

I don't know how many people I have talked to who like to compare themselves to others, claiming to be good people compared to others. And then say that God would not send a good person to hell. Works are the most desceptive of all. Religiosity is one of the worst traps. Especially deceiving.

 

Scripture mentions people who will list all of the things they have done in Jesus name, only to receive the response from Jesus, 'I never knew you'.

[Sevenseas]

I'm not sure what the beef is about, you know full well that the rules the Amish say will send them to hell are false, what's the big deal if they keep rules that will not make a difference, they still will go to heaven! isn't that what the whole race to the finish line is all about, receiving the prize, so they jumped a bunch of extra hurdles, maybe ran up and down a few unnecessary hills, I would conclude going the extra mile to be a safer bet than what the liberal Christianity tries to sell, and will find themselves being called workers of iniquity on the day of judgment

for they were taught not to overcome sin but to simply live in it as if it were not sin, or that living in sin is covered by the blood 

 

 

Yes, what indeed is the big difference or any difference.

 

Here is what is is:

 

A gospel of grace vs a gospel of works

 

Those who are saved by grace...the LOVE of God for us represented in the ultimate sacrifice of God's only begotten and sinless Son will do good works.

 

Those who feel the need to ADD to God's perfection, will ultimately end up adding works to God's grace as in...you MUST do this or that

 

Micheal, not meaning to disparage you, but presenting a verse out of context or altering the meaning because of a lack of proper biblical exegesis, history or even simple understanding,

does not verify one's belief as truth.

 

The gospel of grace in our Lord Jesus Christ is a pivotal and absolute in our acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus.  Adding to that sacrifice, diminishes that truth...this is not my personal

understanding, but the understanding of all those who comprehend what is taught by Paul in the book of Romans and the New Testament in general

 

You cannot add to the grace of God with works.  However, those under grace ultimately do good works.