Cessationism?

[Tyler47]

We believe in cessation because we don't see miracles. Why speak in tongues among those that believe? Why do we need miracles to show that Jesus is the Messiah?

Most of us have access to God's Word and more than enough other materials...we don't need someone to perform a miracle to believe in God.

 

However in other countries that may not have the same access that most have (ie Middle East, Africa, Asia) still see miracles. They still speak with other tongues, and people are still healed...etc.

 

Just my thoughts, I haven't done any research to confirm this, it's just what my position is on this currently is, but I'm open to correction.

 

Why do we need miracles to show that Jesus is Messiah?  Why do we pay peoples breakfast forward at McDonalds in the morning?  Why do we say prayers for people that need Gods help?  Why do we mow our neighbors yard when they are in bed sick?  We do those things to reflect our Savior Jesus Christ.  Why would we need miracles?  For the same reason. 

 

And not everyone is a christian.  Look at some of the people that have had visions of heaven and hell.  Those visions have led people to believe.  Im not saying every prophecy teller or vision is true.  But people seek God after hearing these stories and how they have changed peoples lives.  Anything is possible through Jesus Christ.  Dont doubt something because you dont see it.

[kwikphilly]

Dear Emissary,

   Blessings to you & to all...This subject has been a very controversial one,as we know  it stems from the different interpretations of 1Cor13:8-12....I have heard many schools of thought,mainly the focus seems to be "that which is perfect has come"......they argue that this refers to a "thing" rather than if it were worded"He Who is perfect has come".....and that is how the belief that when the Word of God(the Bible)was completed the sign gifts ceased......I have read studies where it demonstrates that all through the Book of Acts period the operation of the gifts are made mention in Pauls letters written at that time....and then the Lord did reveal that the sign gifts would cease sometime in the future.....they say Paul no longer had the gift of healing as he did in Acts 28:9 at the time he wrote the prison epistles and refer to his co-worker Epaphroditas being seriously ill(Phil2:25-30)...also Timothy suffering (1Tim5:23)and having to leave Trophimus behind because he was so sick(Tim 4:20)......Interestingly,this belief is largely based on the fact that the Jews sought after signs(1Cor1:22) and this was the close(so to say)of God dealing with the Nation Isreal,to provoke them to jealousy(Rom 11:14)

    I have actually gone back & forth with this for some time...I do believe that Pauls gift of healing ceased after a time but perhaps God did that for Paul specifically as He is the one that heals,not Paul...especially when Paul speaks of the thorn in his own flesh and how the Lord keeps you grounded(my Grace is sufficient)....I do believe God does & will give people "sign gifts"when,if & how He pleases....

   I have not revisited this study in a great number of years so I just quickly wrote from memory but the in depth studies did estimate specific times by arranging  Pauls letters in the order they were actually written and when he no longer mentioned speaking in tongues(even when he spoke of being Spirit filled)or any other "gifts"......just because he did not mention it doesn't mean he was not operating in such.....It would take me hours to find my notes,if I even kept them?

  Anyway,just trying to answer your question of how I think they may have come up with these things(as you put it-lol)...there is no Scripture that says specifically when these gifts would cease and even the most in depth studies are only speculation because sign gifts are no longer mentioned(as I said already)...

  We walk by faith & not by sight....having faith that God is able to do all things,exceedingly,abundantly and beyond anything we could dare ask or even think...according to the power that works in us!!!Halleluliah,praise & glory to God-in the Name of Jesus...

                                                                                                                            With love,in Christ-Kwik

[BlessedByTheBest]

hi EoG

 

those seeking a sign will be easily lead astray.  i had to learn that the hard way, but i thank the Lord for those lumps.

 

i love how Ephesians 4 likens it to the maturing of an adolescent man into adulthood.

maturity is achieved in the building up and edifying of the body of Christ through grace, sanctification, faith, hope, and love.

it's as though the aforementioned gifts in the church of Corinth are to be viewed as immature, or lesser(imo).

 

Eph 4:10  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 

Eph 4:11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 

Eph 4:12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 

Eph 4:13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

cessationism can be viewed as heretical, but i believe that many of the gifts spoken of in 1 Cor. 12 were expedients, and were instrumental in a time of transition which will find their true fulfillment in the millennium.  oh boy, will true gifts be rampant then. 

in other words the kingdom came, but the kingdom was rejected, Christ was crucified, and so the gifts of the physical kingdom receded as the mystery of the body of Christ was revealed.  such gifts were needful until then.

i don't think there is one recorded miraculous healing after the book of Acts, and contrariwise, perhaps the most prolific healer besides Jesus Himself had a thorn in his flesh.

 

i believe our true blessings and gifts are spiritual, not physical, as we now reside in heavenly places with Christ Jesus.

instead of physical healing(for example), we are supplied with grace for our infirmities.  God's strength and the grace given us is made perfect in our weaknesses, not in our powers and well-being.

we are being perfected.

 

there is no new prophetic revelation because the canon is closed, but there is no muzzle on God's mouth either.  His sheep hear His voice.

in short, all the miraculous gifts were/are for unbelievers.

 

do i believe the gifts have ceased? yes & no.

 

yes, because there is a more excellent way now.  

no, because God uses whomever He chooses for His glory.

 

God bless.

[SDAinFLA]

 

We believe in cessation because we don't see miracles. Why speak in tongues among those that believe? Why do we need miracles to show that Jesus is the Messiah?

Most of us have access to God's Word and more than enough other materials...we don't need someone to perform a miracle to believe in God.

 

However in other countries that may not have the same access that most have (ie Middle East, Africa, Asia) still see miracles. They still speak with other tongues, and people are still healed...etc.

 

Just my thoughts, I haven't done any research to confirm this, it's just what my position is on this currently is, but I'm open to correction.

 

Why do we need miracles to show that Jesus is Messiah?  Why do we pay peoples breakfast forward at McDonalds in the morning?  Why do we say prayers for people that need Gods help?  Why do we mow our neighbors yard when they are in bed sick?  We do those things to reflect our Savior Jesus Christ.  Why would we need miracles?  For the same reason. 

 

And not everyone is a christian.  Look at some of the people that have had visions of heaven and hell.  Those visions have led people to believe.  Im not saying every prophecy teller or vision is true.  But people seek God after hearing these stories and how they have changed peoples lives.  Anything is possible through Jesus Christ.  Dont doubt something because you dont see it.

 

 

Hi Emissary,

 

If you read my post carefully, I'm not saying that I believe in cessation, I'm simply pointing out why others say they don't believe in it.

What I'm pointing out in my post is the same thing that you are telling me...just because we don't see it...doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Guest courage8]

Addai makes an important point consistent with apostolic witness. How many times through the Gospels and the apostolic letters does the phrase appear, We are eyewitnesses (of the majesty and miracles of the Word incarnate). Personal experience of miracles, healings, tongues, spiritual discernment, and empowered evangelism present a case beyond the purely abstract positioning of words and concepts, however lucid they may be.

 

With profound humility I give witness not only to personal miracles (I would not be alive without the intervention of a miracle-working God), but also to a history of generations of remarkable intervention in the lives of my family and of people I know. In an era when tuberculosis was often a slow death sentence my paternal grandfather contracted a terrible case; my father remembered hemhorrages that horrified him and convinced him his father would never live to see him grown. It seemed hopeless: dad quit school at thirteen and boarded out to keep the family going (they lived in the Kansas heartland). Then one Sunday morning they hitched up the wagon and went to church, as always; and some people known only as "Holiness" folk were visiting; they laid hands on Grandpa, and he was instantly healed; my dad went back to school and later entered the ministry where he prayed faith-filled prayers for healing; and people were healed. I grew up seeing the manifestation of the signs of Pentecost; they were real, and not in the slightest way mass hysteria or hallucination.

 

The doctors pronounced death and doom over me countless times; I was put on life support three times. It was rather funny, really, watching from the interior hall of God's peace, telling myself, "They're 'toe-tagging me.' But they don't know..." That was a long time ago and I'm sitting here typing this response.

 

Cessationism evaporates in the presence of the smallest miracle. Sadly, there are many people who still believe some version of this false doctrine taught in a number of theology schools of certain denominaions.

 

I want to reference just one of Jesus' radiant teachings (taught in word and deed closely linked, as He often did): When He encountered the blind man on the road, He stopped and asked, What do you want me to do for you? And the man said, "That I would receive my sight!" And the Master said, "Let it be according to your faith."

 

We of the 21st Century are those workers coming last to the field, of whom Jesus spoke: how do we face the harrowing days of our time? Surely not by thinking that the signs and works of the Holy Spirit have sunk to the level of a vanished river. We are to take the place of Jesus, trusting that what He said was meant not only for the disciples but for us as well: "Greater things than I do, you will do." Blessings, In Christ,

"Courage"

[NeedYouLord]

Much Love to Everybody...I Serve A Living God...Who Is The Same: Today, Yesterday and Forever...and is Eternal (Right Now-and five minutes from now-it's right now again, My my, Eternity is wonderfully cool)

 

There have been many an unbeliever come to Know The One True God and The Christ Whom He Sent (John 17:3) ...by being healed...being healed first!!! Not even believing yet...Our God is so Good!!!

 

And Brother Paul...I for one am glad He Saved you!!! This is the very best explanation I've ever heard and I am humbly asking permission to repeat it over and over as The Lord wills: (Of course, for me, this saying is for believers that believe-Oh that is so funny-I guess there are some believers that don't believe, my my...anyway) I love what you wrote!!! "We do not need to see miracles to believe but we who believe Him see miracles all around us"...Oh Yes We Do!!!

 

and my experience is that it is involved with the most controversial and yet the only way we can successfully live this new life and do the things Jesus did: Baptism of The Holy Spirit...With His Gifts...So simple...With His Power dwelling in us...Simple but not easy...Calls for surrender...Forgiveness and Repentance...Standing Under The Cross and Watching Jesus Give up His Life For You and For me...His Word and His Shed Blood Washing me clean...Giving up "worldly desires" "desires of the flesh" and "the pride of life"...My my...Not easy...Even this can't be done except By The Power of God...This is why I Seek The Kingdom of God and His Righteousness...

 

I suppose the best personal example of this: The reason I bring this up is because literally...in the same grocery store...I will admit I can't remember for sure if they both happened on the exact same day...but I do remember both incidences and they were in the same grocery store...God showed me the contrast in real time...Just as if I was with the Pharisees and Sadduces-on the one hand-and with Jesus, Himself, on the other...Let me explain:

 

I had gone to the grocery store and there was a pain in my side...had been there a long time...and I was praying  (yes for myself, as a believer (but in my walk and God showing me His Truth for my life-I can't heal myself by myself-I always have to ask for prayer from someone else) see I expect a miracle answer every time I pray...(Gift of faith)...but the problem is: not all believe...

 

All of a sudden, at the potatoes, this nice older woman started telling me how sick her daughter was...wow...why me, hahaha...and I started talking about God...and how He heals...oh but, no, she said...she'll be healed when she goes to Heaven...I said to myself: Oh dear and maybe die-prematurely...I said: Well...With Prayer He can heal now...well she just couldn't accept that fact...and just like Jesus-I disappeared from her presence...

 

Now this is the weird part...I was in pursuit of my healing, and just happened to be in the grocery store...and to me it's like God slowed down time...because it seemed like I had been in that store for 3 hours...and I kept forgetting something that was on the other aisle and so I would go back...and then I went down this other aisle like 3 times...and then back to the vegetables like 2 times...it was crazy...Crazy Good!!! Hahaha...So I said to myself...Well I have to get out of here...So down the last "freezer" aisle I go and I'm just leaning on my buggy...and someone comes up behind me and puts his hand over my eyes and says: "Guess Who?" I said Lonnie is that you? and his wife and son were with him...I started telling him about this pain and how I had been praying and hurting all day...and that I needed prayer...He said: "Well lets get to it..." and we did...right in the middle of the grocery store!!! On the freezer aisle...We joined hands and he began to pray...and my goodness: I was healed!!! No pain...I believe it to this day...God had me running around that store-waiting on Lonnie!!! My my...

 

And so...It goes back to: How can I receive if I don't believe? I love ya'll so much...In Jesus...I know all the arguments...but to someone that has walked on both sides...can't convince me otherwise...I've laid hands on a little boy and prayed in Walmart that fell on his face right in front of me!!! And a good while later saw his mama still looking him over!!! If he had of been hurt and I was his mama I would have rushed to the hospital-immediately...but I choose to believe that My Lord and My God healed him-she heard me praying...apparently she was still trying to be convinced-what? there is no blood? Hahaha...Whew...

 

I know it seems to many that I talk about "I" alot and to some how can you do that...In order to explain and testify-How do I not say "I"?...Then it would be someone else's relationship with God and someone else testifying of His Goodness!!! Nope...He saved me and I'm going to tell about it...Hahaha

 

Rest assured though-We can go to The Secret Place...Kneeling At His Throne of Grace...Praying...Making petition and supplication...Seeing Jesus on every page of the Old Testament...An Amazing Walk (Journey) we have begun...and to think that it will never end...That's Amazing and Gives me Hope...Well, I love ya'll so much...again...Oh I get it...I've supposedly given up my life and it's just Jesus in me...Oh that's what it is...but the problem is: God created me...well ok...still falling short of perfection and still running the race...Hahaha

 

He who says he abides In Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked...1 John 2:6