Not under the law

[borntorebel]

shiloh357 says,

Why would we care about what the religious Jews who were not believers thought.  Paul was following the advice of James.  He performed the vow to show that he was not teaching against the Torah of Moses as he had been accused of by believing Jews.  He was proving himself to the believing community, not to the non-believing community.  The opinons of the non-believing Jews was irrelavent.

Because I don't remove any part of scripture and look at it by itself apart from other relevant parts of scripture. All of scripture is inspired by God and doesn't contradict itself. If you remove parts of scripture and don't use other parts that seem to contradict it to help in determining it's meaning, you are creating false doctrines. In this one passage, it isn't James alone who is asking Paul to do this, but all of the elders who were with him. He performed the vow to be as a Jew unto Jews so he could win them over to Christ and away from the demands of their law. All the law is fulfilled in Christ and in loving God and your neighbor. Noone needs to follow any other law but these, for in these is all the law fulfilled.

May God's grace, power and peace be with you,

Ron

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh357 says,

Why would we care about what the religious Jews who were not believers thought.

[Yahsway]

borntorebel, You said that grace means something we do not deserve , a gift, right?

Well one of the first person I can think of that God was gracious to was Cain. God did not slay him then and there for the murder of Abel. He even marked Cain so that anyone who found him would not kill him. The mark was not a stigma, but rather a protection for Cain and shows Gods awesome grace , mercy, and love for even impenitent sinners.

I dont look up to see how many times the word "grace" is in the OT, I know that God was gracious to many in OT times.

Grace alone will not save anyone. Yeshua has offered us eternal life by shedding His blood for us at the cross. That is Grace. But some people will not accept it.

But, by Faith we are saved. Its because we believe that He is God the Son, we accept His Grace. It has always been by Faith. Even Yeshua asked the question of when He returns to this earth would He find any Faith?

If you have no faith and dont believe in Yeshuas work on the cross then you are under the law. That will be what you are judged by when you die.

But, if you have Faith and believe and accept Yeshua, then you are under His grace and protection.

But, Faith without works is dead. What works? There is more to it then just saying I love God, my mom, dad, friends, lost people ect.. We must act upon it.

Where is the guide for this? Yes, Yeshua. But who is Yeshua. The Son of God. The word, He is The Torah, the teachings, instructions, the 10 commandments.

Yeshua said if we love Him, then we would keep His commandments. Understand? Not for salvation. But the 10 commandments were not nailed to the cross. The 10 commandments do not shed blood. Yeshua did. For without the shedding of blood, there is no remission or forgiveness of sins.

God was gracious and merciful to a dying world so He sent His Son. His Son, wholly submitted to the Father acted upon the Fathers will. He was obedient because He loves the Father and because He loves us.

Not one jot or titl will pass away from the law. It stands forever. Yeshua paid the penalty for us , so if we sin(under law) we have Him as an advocate with the Father to plead our case for us. He is our mediator.

Yeshua said if we teach men not to obey even the least of the commandments, then we will be called "least" in the Kingdom. Shalom

[borntorebel]

Yahsway says,

Well one of the first person I can think of that God was gracious to was Cain. God did not slay him then and there for the murder of Abel. He even marked Cain so that  anyone who found him would not kill him. The mark was not a stigma, but rather a protection for Cain and shows Gods awesome grace , mercy, and love for even impenitent sinners.

The sign wasn't a protection for Cain. God didn't say it would protect him from being killed, He said that whosoever killed Cain would have vengeance come upon him sevenfold. God cursed Cain, I wouldn't call that being gracious.

Yahsway says,

Grace alone will not save anyone. Yeshua has offered us eternal life by shedding His blood for us at the cross. That is Grace. But some people will not accept it.

But, by Faith we are saved. Its because we believe that He is God the Son, we accept His Grace. It has always been by Faith. Even Yeshua asked the question of when He returns to this earth would He find any Faith?

If you have no faith and dont believe in Yeshuas work on the cross then you are under the law. That will be what you are judged by when you die.

But, if you have Faith and believe and accept Yeshua, then you are under His grace and protection.

It is ONLY by grace that we are saved, through faith, both of which are the gift of God. Yes, without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. That was provided for by God's grace of sending His Son Jesus Christ. The faith we have to believe in God is given to us by God, it isn't something we muster up as unbelievers to bring God to us. God came to us and gave us all we need to be saved.

Yahsway says,

Not one jot or titl will pass away from the law. It stands forever. Yeshua paid the penalty for us , so if we sin(under law) we have Him as an advocate with the Father to plead our case for us. He is our mediator.

No, once again you misquote scripture;

"For verily I say unto you, 'Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Mt. 5:18.

The law will pass away and all that is within it when all is fulfilled at the end of the ages. If we sin we aren't automatically under the law. If you are a christian, a follower of Christ, when you sin you ask for forgiveness and you are forgiven, because we have a mediator Jesus Christ.

May God's grace, power and peace be with you,

Ron

[nebula]

Yahsway says,

I bet if we look hard enough in OT scripture, Gods grace (unmerited favor) is written all thruout the ages. What do you think?

Actually Yahsway, out of the 38 times the word "grace" is used in the OT, it can only be seen as "unmerited favor" maybe 3 times. Guess it's not as prevalent as you thought. The grace we have from God is a result of Christ's life and death and resurrection.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, you're saying God changed?

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And the OT does a lot more showing you what happened than explaining to you what happened.

Thus, you will not find the word or phrase "grace" or "unmerited favor". Rather, you will see it being demonstrated. That means you have to know what the word means and then recognize it being demonstrated.

[borntorebel]

nebula says,

So, you're saying God changed?

No I never even insinuated that. My point was that anytime grace is mentioned in the OT, it was due to what was being done by the person. It was something earned, not given freely. Now, there may be instances of "unmerited favor" in the OT, but it wasn't the way God worked with His people. It was an "earning" belief system, not a "grace driven" belief system.

May God's grace, power and peace be with you,

Ron

[nebula]

Sorry, rebel -

Saying God has changed His ways is saying God changed.

Now, what did Abraham do to "earn" God's favor? The only thing given is that Abraham believed - well, don't we have to believe, too?

Did David "earn" the grace given him? Let's see - he sought God's heart, he repented of his sin . . . well, don't we need to do that also?

Or Jacob? What in the world did he do to earn God's grace?

[borntorebel]

shiloh357 says,

When you actually READ the story, Paul is performed the vow for the sake of the believing Jewish community which was zealous for the Torah and were alarmed at rumors stating that Paul was teaching that they should not walk after the customs or circumcize (the same lie that is told about him today). 

To prove that this rumor was not true, Paul went and performed the vow to show that he kept the Torah, according to Acts 21:24.

He did not perform the vow for the sake the nonbelieving Jewish community  to win them over, as you incorrectly assert.

Let's see what Paul has to say about the customs of the Jews;

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Acts. 3:28-29;

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them that are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe." Romans 3:19-22;

"Wherefore my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." Romans 7:4;

"There is therefore now no condmenation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life n Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4;

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:7-9;

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?...He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?...For as many as are under the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, 'Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them'. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, 'The just shall live by faith.' And the law is not of faith: but, 'The man that doeth them shall live in them.' Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, 'Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree':...Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. ...Is the law of God then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. ...Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." Galatians 3:13, 5, 10-13, 19, 21, 24-25;

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" 1 Tim. 1:9-10.

As we can see from these scriptures, the law was a foreshedowing of what was to come. The law can do NOTHING to save us from our sins. The law is for sinners, those who aren't followers of Christ. Now, that doesn't mean we can just throw out the law. Paul touches on that sentiment several times. We are told however, that we aren't to go back to the law and build a belief system that says it is what brings us to salvation or makes us righteous. It doesn't have the power to do that. If it did, there wasn't any need for Christ. I'm not saying we are to throw out the law. That is a direct contradiction to what Paul says. We are to realize that the law doesn't save us from our sins. The law is now written on our hearts. None of the old ways of the OT are meaningful now. We aren't to follow any of the ordinances, festivals, or rituals of the law or OT. We are to follow Christ and what He has taught us.

May God's grace, power and peace be with you,

Ron

[borntorebel]

nebula says,

Sorry, rebel -

Saying God has changed His ways is saying God changed.

Well then, God has changed by your logic. In the OT, man had to live by the law to be righteous. Now God has told us the law can't make us righteous for no man can live by it 100%, so He has given us the gift of grace through His Son Jesus Christ. Those are two different ways of doing things, so by your fallen carnal logic, God changes. Sorry, my beliefs are based on scripture, not man's fallen logic and reasoning.

nebula says,

Now, what did Abraham do to "earn" God's favor?  The only thing given is that Abraham believed - well, don't we have to believe, too?

Well, as I recall, there was this little thing Abraham had to do. Something about sacrificing his promised miracle son that God gave to him. But I guess in your booik, that isn't "earning" God's favor.

nebula says,

Did David "earn" the grace given him?  Let's see - he sought God's heart, he repented of his sin . . . well, don't we need to do that also?

If he didn't follow the ways of the law and sacrificial system, he didn't receive God's favor. David died without repenting of several sins. Do you know what they are?

The OT is all about earning what you redceive from God. The belief system was based on works, not a free gift.

May God's grace, power and peace be with you,

Ron

[nebula]

In the OT, man had to live by the law to be righteous.

Have you not read in Romans where it says:

30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." [Gen. 15:6]

4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

(Romans 3-4)?

Now God has told us the law can't make us righteous for no man can live by it 100%, so He has given us the gift of grace through His Son Jesus Christ.