After the Peace Treaty is signed

[Hindsfeet]

firestormx

 

 

 

As for the separate punishment, not sure what your referring to

 

I have read and heard Pre-trib rapture teachers and followers proclaim while they are having a big wedding party after they have been raptured outa here, Israel is being punished during the 70th week, but as you can see from my earlier post (I hope), Israel's transgressions have already been atoned for ending the 70th week theory.

Nikki this makes sense to me (for the first time), thanks for that. I've believed that the church was in this 'gap' grace period of the 70 weeks, but it never quite made sense to me, its...illogical, to me. However, I still believe that Dan 9:24 is yet to be fulfilled (in greater completion). But the fact that Israel will still be punished during the last week does not compute. If we, as (pre-trib/pre-wrath) believers, believe that we will be spared this wrath, why then would the last generation of Jews be left holding the ball to receive the wrath?

I'm basically just thinking out loud here - thanks Nikki for putting that in terms that compute.

[Montana Marv]

The wrath of God is for the whole ungodly world.  Not Israel.  Israel flees from the onslaught of Satan, the last 3 1/2 years, the time of Jacobs trouble.  Yet 2/3's of Israel dies per Zech 13:8,9.  Israel is not atoned for until they reply;  "The Lord is our God".

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[nikki1]

 

firestormx

 

 

 

As for the separate punishment, not sure what your referring to

 

I have read and heard Pre-trib rapture teachers and followers proclaim while they are having a big wedding party after they have been raptured outa here, Israel is being punished during the 70th week, but as you can see from my earlier post (I hope), Israel's transgressions have already been atoned for ending the 70th week theory.

Nikki this makes sense to me (for the first time), thanks for that. I've believed that the church was in this 'gap' grace period of the 70 weeks, but it never quite made sense to me, its...illogical, to me. However, I still believe that Dan 9:24 is yet to be fulfilled (in greater completion). But the fact that Israel will still be punished during the last week does not compute. If we, as (pre-trib/pre-wrath) believers, believe that we will be spared this wrath, why then would the last generation of Jews be left holding the ball to receive the wrath?

I'm basically just thinking out loud here - thanks Nikki for putting that in terms that compute.

 

 

 

 

 

 

why then would the last generation of Jews be left holding the ball to receive the wrath?

That's just it  according to the prophecy, Israel has answered for all of their (past) transgressions after the 490 years or 70 weeks  had passed.

 

Care to share what it is about Daniel 9:24 that you don't think is fulfilled  completely?

 

 

 

 

Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

 

Recent evangelical teaching pushes the idea that there is a long gap (theory) but what is the justification for this theory?    Why are we not to take the whole of the 70 weeks as one consecutive event after another?  Since there is no gap between the first seven weeks and the following sixty-two weeks, (the first and second divisions of the total period) it comes as a doubtful idea to find this extraordinarily log gap to exist between the second and third division.  This length gap completely breaks the natural continuity of the prophecy. 

 

It has long been established that the period of 490 years was a period prophesied that  continued uninterrupted from its start to completion.  How can anyone imagine there is an interval between the sixty-nine  and the one (week) when these two together make up the seventy?  This Messianic consecutive interpretation of Daniel  9 has been eclipsed almost completely in historical-critical scholarship. Some of the representative voices among exegetes of the last 150 years are E.W. Hengstenberg, J.N. Andrews, E.B. Pusey, J. Raska, J. Hontheim, Boutflower and O. Gerhardt.

 

Another commentary over the last 150 years,  P. Mauro,  has shown that there is ‘an absolute rule, admitting of no exceptions, that when a definite measure of time or space is specified by the number of units composing it, within which a certain event is to happen, or a certain thing is to be found, the units of time or space which make up that measure are to be understood as running continuously and successfully. This is based on the observation that the 430 years of Genesis  15:13, Exodus 12:20, Galatians  3;17; the 40 years of the wilderness wandering of Numbers 14:34; and the seven years of plenty and of famine of Genesis 45:6 were respectively consecutive years.

 

The three days after which Jesus was to arise were also consecutive. Since these time periods were consecutive, the natural thing would be to expect the 70 weeks of Daniel  9:24-27 likewise to be 70 consecutive weeks” (F. Holbrooke, pp.22-23, emphasis added).

[Guest DRS81]

..

[Guest DRS81]

 

I would say birth pains, to use the reference of Jesus.

 

I can agree with that.

 

You were right, birth pains not seals. (Matthew 24:6-8 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you dare not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.)

[Montana Marv]

 

 

firestormx

 

 

 

As for the separate punishment, not sure what your referring to

 

I have read and heard Pre-trib rapture teachers and followers proclaim while they are having a big wedding party after they have been raptured outa here, Israel is being punished during the 70th week, but as you can see from my earlier post (I hope), Israel's transgressions have already been atoned for ending the 70th week theory.

Nikki this makes sense to me (for the first time), thanks for that. I've believed that the church was in this 'gap' grace period of the 70 weeks, but it never quite made sense to me, its...illogical, to me. However, I still believe that Dan 9:24 is yet to be fulfilled (in greater completion). But the fact that Israel will still be punished during the last week does not compute. If we, as (pre-trib/pre-wrath) believers, believe that we will be spared this wrath, why then would the last generation of Jews be left holding the ball to receive the wrath?

I'm basically just thinking out loud here - thanks Nikki for putting that in terms that compute.

 

 

 

 

 

 

why then would the last generation of Jews be left holding the ball to receive the wrath?

That's just it  according to the prophecy, Israel has answered for all of their (past) transgressions after the 490 years or 70 weeks  had passed.

 

Care to share what it is about Daniel 9:24 that you don't think is fulfilled  completely?

 

 

 

 

Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

 

Recent evangelical teaching pushes the idea that there is a long gap (theory) but what is the justification for this theory?    Why are we not to take the whole of the 70 weeks as one consecutive event after another?  Since there is no gap between the first seven weeks and the following sixty-two weeks, (the first and second divisions of the total period) it comes as a doubtful idea to find this extraordinarily log gap to exist between the second and third division.  This length gap completely breaks the natural continuity of the prophecy. 

 

It has long been established that the period of 490 years was a period prophesied that  continued uninterrupted from its start to completion.  How can anyone imagine there is an interval between the sixty-nine  and the one (week) when these two together make up the seventy?  This Messianic consecutive interpretation of Daniel  9 has been eclipsed almost completely in historical-critical scholarship. Some of the representative voices among exegetes of the last 150 years are E.W. Hengstenberg, J.N. Andrews, E.B. Pusey, J. Raska, J. Hontheim, Boutflower and O. Gerhardt.

 

Another commentary over the last 150 years,  P. Mauro,  has shown that there is ‘an absolute rule, admitting of no exceptions, that when a definite measure of time or space is specified by the number of units composing it, within which a certain event is to happen, or a certain thing is to be found, the units of time or space which make up that measure are to be understood as running continuously and successfully. This is based on the observation that the 430 years of Genesis  15:13, Exodus 12:20, Galatians  3;17; the 40 years of the wilderness wandering of Numbers 14:34; and the seven years of plenty and of famine of Genesis 45:6 were respectively consecutive years.

 

The three days after which Jesus was to arise were also consecutive. Since these time periods were consecutive, the natural thing would be to expect the 70 weeks of Daniel  9:24-27 likewise to be 70 consecutive weeks” (F. Holbrooke, pp.22-23, emphasis added).

 

 

If the 70th week is past and completed then Daniels people (Israel) and Daniels holy city (Jerusalem) have completed their six tasks; being 1. finish transgression (Israel still transgresses), 2. put an end to sin (Israel still is in sin, they have been plucked out of the vine), 3.  to atone for wickedness (no atonement has been established, they still do not call on God), 4.  to bring in everlasting righteousness (Israel is not there yet, when they say "The Lord is our God", it will begin, 5.  To seal up vision and prophecy (Rev was written in about 90 to 95 AD (full of visions and prophecy), 6. to anoint the most holy (He, Jesus Christ is not their king yet).

 

None of the six tasks have been completed by Israel or Jerusalem, therefore the 70th week has not begun and not yet finished.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[firestormx]

If the 70th week is past and completed then Daniels people (Israel) and Daniels holy city (Jerusalem) have completed their six tasks; being 1. finish transgression (Israel still transgresses), 2. put an end to sin (Israel still is in sin, they have been plucked out of the vine), 3.  to atone for wickedness (no atonement has been established, they still do not call on God), 4.  to bring in everlasting righteousness (Israel is not there yet, when they say "The Lord is our God", it will begin, 5.  To seal up vision and prophecy (Rev was written in about 90 to 95 AD (full of visions and prophecy), 6. to anoint the most holy (He, Jesus Christ is not their king yet).

 

None of the six tasks have been completed by Israel or Jerusalem, therefore the 70th week has not begun and not yet finished.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Amen!

[nikki1]

 

 

 

firestormx

 

 

 

As for the separate punishment, not sure what your referring to

 

I have read and heard Pre-trib rapture teachers and followers proclaim while they are having a big wedding party after they have been raptured outa here, Israel is being punished during the 70th week, but as you can see from my earlier post (I hope), Israel's transgressions have already been atoned for ending the 70th week theory.

Nikki this makes sense to me (for the first time), thanks for that. I've believed that the church was in this 'gap' grace period of the 70 weeks, but it never quite made sense to me, its...illogical, to me. However, I still believe that Dan 9:24 is yet to be fulfilled (in greater completion). But the fact that Israel will still be punished during the last week does not compute. If we, as (pre-trib/pre-wrath) believers, believe that we will be spared this wrath, why then would the last generation of Jews be left holding the ball to receive the wrath?

I'm basically just thinking out loud here - thanks Nikki for putting that in terms that compute.

 

 

 

 

 

 

why then would the last generation of Jews be left holding the ball to receive the wrath?

That's just it  according to the prophecy, Israel has answered for all of their (past) transgressions after the 490 years or 70 weeks  had passed.

 

Care to share what it is about Daniel 9:24 that you don't think is fulfilled  completely?

 

 

 

 

Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

 

Recent evangelical teaching pushes the idea that there is a long gap (theory) but what is the justification for this theory?    Why are we not to take the whole of the 70 weeks as one consecutive event after another?  Since there is no gap between the first seven weeks and the following sixty-two weeks, (the first and second divisions of the total period) it comes as a doubtful idea to find this extraordinarily log gap to exist between the second and third division.  This length gap completely breaks the natural continuity of the prophecy. 

 

It has long been established that the period of 490 years was a period prophesied that  continued uninterrupted from its start to completion.  How can anyone imagine there is an interval between the sixty-nine  and the one (week) when these two together make up the seventy?  This Messianic consecutive interpretation of Daniel  9 has been eclipsed almost completely in historical-critical scholarship. Some of the representative voices among exegetes of the last 150 years are E.W. Hengstenberg, J.N. Andrews, E.B. Pusey, J. Raska, J. Hontheim, Boutflower and O. Gerhardt.

 

Another commentary over the last 150 years,  P. Mauro,  has shown that there is ‘an absolute rule, admitting of no exceptions, that when a definite measure of time or space is specified by the number of units composing it, within which a certain event is to happen, or a certain thing is to be found, the units of time or space which make up that measure are to be understood as running continuously and successfully. This is based on the observation that the 430 years of Genesis  15:13, Exodus 12:20, Galatians  3;17; the 40 years of the wilderness wandering of Numbers 14:34; and the seven years of plenty and of famine of Genesis 45:6 were respectively consecutive years.

 

The three days after which Jesus was to arise were also consecutive. Since these time periods were consecutive, the natural thing would be to expect the 70 weeks of Daniel  9:24-27 likewise to be 70 consecutive weeks” (F. Holbrooke, pp.22-23, emphasis added).

 

 

If the 70th week is past and completed then Daniels people (Israel) and Daniels holy city (Jerusalem) have completed their six tasks; being 1. finish transgression (Israel still transgresses), 2. put an end to sin (Israel still is in sin, they have been plucked out of the vine), 3.  to atone for wickedness (no atonement has been established, they still do not call on God), 4.  to bring in everlasting righteousness (Israel is not there yet, when they say "The Lord is our God", it will begin, 5.  To seal up vision and prophecy (Rev was written in about 90 to 95 AD (full of visions and prophecy), 6. to anoint the most holy (He, Jesus Christ is not their king yet).

 

None of the six tasks have been completed by Israel or Jerusalem, therefore the 70th week has not begun and not yet finished.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

 

 

I think you have totally minunderstood the prophecy because you are basing your views on a dispensational one, and a pre-trib rapture, and neither you or anyone else has given a biblical justification  for the long gap between the completion of the  69 weeks to the 70th week.

 

Notice what Daniel says will be accomplished in the 70 weeks or 490 years...

 

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seqal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most  Holy.

 

1. to finish the transgression.  This means the sins of Judah (Daniel's people) were to be complete or filled at the end of the 490 years.  After that time, Jerusalem was to be destroyed which occurred at 70 AD by Titus which is also in the prophecy. (vs. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself; and the  people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

2. To make an end of sins.ulehathem chataoth  to make an end of sin-offerings.  This is not about Israel, as you have said above, but Daniel's vision   is referring to  Messiah, Jesus Christ, which he did when he offered up his sinless body on the cross once and for all, bringing an end to the sacrificial offerings in the temple forever.  "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever,  sat down on the right hand of God; Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin" Hebrews 10:12, 18

 

3. To make reconciliation for iniquity. ulechapper to make atonement or expiation for iniquity.  (Again, you are referring to Israel but Daniel is prophecizing about Israel's Messiah and  the scripture is about the Messiah Yeshua.)Which Jesus did by the offering up of himself once and for all.  Jesus Christ is the ultimate Atonement for our sins.  "And he is the propiatiation for our sins: (Strong's #G2434 'hil as mos' atonement, that is (concretely) an expiator: propiatiation) and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

 

4. To bring in everlasting righteousness.  Israel is not the one to bring in everlasting righteousness; Again, Daniel is speaking of Messiah .  The entire NT speaks of the righteousness of our Saviour Jesus Christ. 

 

5. To seal up the vision and prophecy.  The vision, meaning this period of 490 years. Young's literal translation has "to seal up"[ to bring to an end or to complete the vision and prophet.] The vision and the prophet are to come to an end by the time this prophetic period closes.

 

6. To annoint the most Holy.  The Hebrew phrase here is "kodesh kodashim" "the Holy of Holies", which is mentioned a multitude of times in the OT, referring to the sanctuary or a connection to the sanctuary being annointed.  When you research  the references of sanctuary as it pertains to annointments throughout the OT, the only thing it can mean is the Temple of God in Heaven.  Isaiah 6:1-4--....."I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up and his train filled the temple..........."  Isaiah's vision fits exactly with what John saw in Revelation 4:1-11  Also, inside the Temple in Heaven, you see in Revelation 11:19 "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament; and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings and an earthquake and great hail".

 

All of the six criteria  have been completed, thus completing Daniels vision and 70 weeks or 490 years.

[Montana Marv]

Nikki1

 

Dan 9:24 - Seventy sevens are decreed for YOUR People (plural) and YOUR Holy City (Jerusalem) to: complete the six tasks

 

This is not a prophecy about Jesus Christ fulfilling these tasks, It is for Israel and Jerusalem to fulfill these six tasks.  Gabriel was the messenger.  Some non dispensational people try to use substitution to discredit what Gabriel told Daniel.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest DRS81]

I think you have totally misunderstood the prophecy because you are basing your views on a dispensational one.

 

Hi nikki1. Blessings to you.

 

When I read Daniel 9:24-27..

I see the antichrist, abomination of desolation, the third temple vision, and the great tribulation that is to come.

These things haven't happened yet.....

 

Daniel 9:24-27 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, land to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

 

Am I missing something..