Biblical support of Eternal Hellfire?

[donfish06]

For Jesus to die spiritually would mean that Jesus became a sinner.   Jesus didn't have to die spiritually to pay the price.  The price was paid in Jesus physical death and his shed blood as an offering for sin.   Jesus, had He died spiritually, would have ceased to be God.  Jesus could NOT have died spiritually and stil saved us from our sins.

 

2Co 5:21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

For Jesus to die spiritually would mean that Jesus became a sinner.   Jesus didn't have to die spiritually to pay the price.  The price was paid in Jesus physical death and his shed blood as an offering for sin.   Jesus, had He died spiritually, would have ceased to be God.  Jesus could NOT have died spiritually and stil saved us from our sins.

 

2Co 5:21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 

 

Well, you need to examine the Greek becuase the phrase, "hath made Him to be sin for us"  uses a word that means "sin offering."   Jesus didn't become "sin."  He was made as an offering for sin.   So no, Jesus didn't die spiritually or become sin, nor become a sinner.   Jesus remained just as much God on the cross as He was before He took on human flesh.

[Remnantrob]

 

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong but Jesus DIED on the cross and paid for our sins so that we wouldn't have to. He took out penalty for us, and that wasn't our physical natural death or the first death. If the penalty Jesus had to take on our behalf was death, meaning he had to die, he had to give up the ghost and not suffer torment for eternity, then how is it that those who will be lost and would have to then pay the penalty for their own sins would have to suffer for eternity, if Jesus did not have to do that to pay for our sins?

 

The thing to remember is that Jesus didn't die spiriitually on our behalf.  Jesus paid for our sins on the cross and that was the end of Jesus' suffering.  Once the work of of the cross was completed, Jesus died fully paying our sin debt and fully satisfying God's justice.

 

Without that all of us would have to suffer for eternity separated from God.  Jesus' sinless, physical death was all that was required for us to have eternal life. So trying to use Jesus' death as an analogy doesn't really cover it. 

 

If this is true then I would have to assume that we're lost because the price needs to be paid...either by us or by him and if he didn't then I have no hope in eternal life. It just means Jesus got a discount on the wages of sin.

 

For Jesus to die spiritually would mean that Jesus became a sinner.   Jesus didn't have to die spiritually to pay the price.  The price was paid in Jesus physical death and his shed blood as an offering for sin.   Jesus, had He died spiritually, would have ceased to be God.  Jesus could NOT have died spiritually and stil saved us from our sins.

 

Romans 6:23 has a dual meaning then.  I can't accept it because it does not say the wages of sin is only physical death if you are the sin offering.  Sorry. But I see more that it is our difference in the understanding of death. 

[donfish06]

Well, you need to examine the Greek becuase the phrase, "hath made Him to be sin for us"  uses a word that means "sin offering."   Jesus didn't become "sin."  He was made as an offering for sin.   So no, Jesus didn't die spiritually or become sin, nor become a sinner.   Jesus remained just as much God on the cross as He was before He took on human flesh.

 

Are you suggesting that God died?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Well, you need to examine the Greek becuase the phrase, "hath made Him to be sin for us"  uses a word that means "sin offering."   Jesus didn't become "sin."  He was made as an offering for sin.   So no, Jesus didn't die spiritually or become sin, nor become a sinner.   Jesus remained just as much God on the cross as He was before He took on human flesh.

 

Are you suggesting that God died?

 

No, I am saying that Jesus' humanity died.  Jesus died physically as a man on the cross and that sinless death is what paid the penalty for our sin.  As result of our sin being imputed to Him, His righteousness is imputed to us.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong but Jesus DIED on the cross and paid for our sins so that we wouldn't have to. He took out penalty for us, and that wasn't our physical natural death or the first death. If the penalty Jesus had to take on our behalf was death, meaning he had to die, he had to give up the ghost and not suffer torment for eternity, then how is it that those who will be lost and would have to then pay the penalty for their own sins would have to suffer for eternity, if Jesus did not have to do that to pay for our sins?

 

The thing to remember is that Jesus didn't die spiriitually on our behalf.  Jesus paid for our sins on the cross and that was the end of Jesus' suffering.  Once the work of of the cross was completed, Jesus died fully paying our sin debt and fully satisfying God's justice.

 

Without that all of us would have to suffer for eternity separated from God.  Jesus' sinless, physical death was all that was required for us to have eternal life. So trying to use Jesus' death as an analogy doesn't really cover it. 

 

If this is true then I would have to assume that we're lost because the price needs to be paid...either by us or by him and if he didn't then I have no hope in eternal life. It just means Jesus got a discount on the wages of sin.

 

For Jesus to die spiritually would mean that Jesus became a sinner.   Jesus didn't have to die spiritually to pay the price.  The price was paid in Jesus physical death and his shed blood as an offering for sin.   Jesus, had He died spiritually, would have ceased to be God.  Jesus could NOT have died spiritually and stil saved us from our sins.

 

Romans 6:23 has a dual meaning then.  I can't accept it because it does not say the wages of sin is only physical death if you are the sin offering.  Sorry. But I see more that it is our difference in the understanding of death. 

 

Not seeing where you are getting that notion.   The wages of sin FOR US is death, aka spiritual separation from God.   Jesus' death was a purely physical in that it was sinless death that paid the penalty for our sin.   Jesus was our sin offering (Hebrews 10)   Jesus can't die spiritually because Jesus is God.  God can't die.  So there is no dual meaning to Rom. 6:23.  You are misapplying that verse.

[donfish06]

No, I am saying that Jesus' humanity died.  Jesus died physically as a man on the cross and that sinless death is what paid the penalty for our sin.  As result of our sin being imputed to Him, His righteousness is imputed to us.

 

Right, I agree with that

[GoldenEagle]

Also of interest to note... The phrase "forever and ever" is used both of describing God's eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation.  The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses in the below.

The phrase is as follows:

 

forever and ever

aionas ton aionon

"ages of the ages"

 

Eternal - without end

1 Tim. 1:17

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Rev. 5:13

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

 

Eternal Damnation

Rev. 19:3

Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!”

Rev. 20:10

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone wherethe beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Greek phrase aionas ton aionon, which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end and extending into infinity.

Also worth examining is... 

 

Rev. 14:11

And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. 

 

This passage of Scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.

 

God bless,

GE

 

Donfish06 what do you make of this?

God bless,

GE

[enoob57]

I believe the eternal torment doctrine is a huge reason why we have a lot of atheist.  Atheist will not accept a loving God who seems to delight in sadism.  How can a pauper who steals bread and doesn't know Jesus have equal punishment to that of Hitler?  I think of Andrea Yates who was driven insane and killed her own children because of her own unrighteousness.  I've heard stories of christians becoming depressed over the thought that current family members are possibly being tortured in hell fire.  I would rather believe in eternal punishment vs. eternal punishing because I couldn't understand being happy in heaven while someone I love will be tormented forever.

The Bible indicates various degrees of hell

http://www.gotquestions.org/levels-hell.html

As they don't address those areas of Biblical suggestion:

Matt 10:15

Matt 11:22

Matt 11:24

Mark 6:11

Luke 10:12

Luke 10:14

However the point of eternal separation from God should be the only consideration of the torment of Hell!

The fact of who goes and who doesn't belongs to the only qualified judge Jesus The Christ. Any position that

brings that into question is really saying I have authority to judge God ... and that is a lie born out of

satan himself! Love, Steven

[donfish06]

Donfish06 what do you make of this?

 

I have showed multiple accounts in the scriptures where "for ever" does not mean eternity. Jonah used it when he referenced his time in the belly of the whale (Jon 2:6)  Hannah used it in reference of however long Samuel lives (1 Sam 1:22) "for ever" means for ages. For ever and ever means for ages and ages. 

 

Ever:

G165

αἰών

aiōn

ahee-ohn'

From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

 

It is used in reference to everlasting life as well. Everlasting is not eternal, either. Everlasting can be never ending, but it too can be "lasting for an age", while eternal means no beginning and no end. If you have eternal life, then you had to have always had it, because it never begins. You can however gain everlasting life, and never die, but you had to GAIN it.

 

So my point is that the only reason people believe in "eternal hell" is because of the terms "for ever" and "everlasting", which don't mean eternal.

 

Some other scriptures that use "for ever" or "everlasting" as a period of time: Deu 23:3, Ex 21:6, Gen 17:8, Lev 16:34