apothanein kerdos Posted December 26, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 26, 2004 Dear Super Jew, This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. Thank you for your link to alleged evidence. I have read it, and researched the organization that sponsors this alleged evidence. I have concluded that the organization is not a scientific one, but one that has a political and religious agenda. I cannot give credence to any findings by such an organization. If you wish to see what I found, please let me know so I can PM you the website (I don't think I am allowed to openly post contradictorary website on this board). Regards, UndecidedFrog <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh that's just pathetic. No offense, but any claim you make to an intellectual debate will not be taken seriously. These men attended secular universities and obtained secular degrees. They are respected in the scientific community and have proven themselves. Also, you read that site? Amazing how you read over 200 pages of articles that I linked you to in less than 24 hours and also comprehended it. I submit that you are not undecided, but are decided...for it would take a vast use of ignorance to throw out this evidence on a whim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted December 26, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 26, 2004 Slope, I really don't understand why you continually single me out and ask me this question in public? We have had MANY private messages on this question so I see little reason to hijack this thread with this... again. My apologies to the people interested in this thread. No hijack. I don't understand why when someone responds to you with the very Word of God you feel singeled out? Please do not apologize for me. I am not ashamed of the Gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ for in it is life and no condemnation for those whom will. I was responding to your efforts here to cloud what I had spoken to my dear brother Bud. Someone questioned you about why you would go to an Atheist site. They would warn you against it out of the fear that you are not intelligent enough to make your own mind up about things you read and hear and or out of fear that your faith or gods word is not strong enough to keep you from "straying". You are entitled to your opinion here. What I was doing was kindly responding to that. Again you do have Free Will. It appears you are using it. Sitting here at this forum gives you a singlular view of the world and we all know the world is round. Yes, the problem is that Truth is not relative. It is not both and. It is either or. God is not round and smooth and you can not keep Him in a box. He's sharp and dangerous. That get's to the heart of the tough question's Bud asked. You see the Word of God stands and will continue to for eternity. The question is really whether or not you believe it? Isn't that your whole purpose for being here? Isn't that the whole purpose for tough question's? So Slope who is Jesus Christ and what are you going to do with Him? Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 27, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Folks, there is something we need to remember as we read this: If there is a god, and he does wish for me to know him, and he has the power to make himself known to me, then I await that experience. No amount of your bullying (by quoting biblical references) will convince me. . . . I still await the evidence. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Jesus said that He did not come to heal the healthy but the sick. He also said that those who claimed to see are still in blindness. My point is that the Lord reveals Himself to us when we admit our sickness and blindness and our need for Him. If I am reading Undecided Frog right, he is not a place where he believes he even needs God. Therefore, any attempts to "prove" God to him will fall on deaf ears as it were. Remember the parable about the rich man and Lazerus? What was told the rich man - "If they do not believe the Law and the Prophets, they will not believe if someone rises from the dead." Unless one is willing to surrender to God, that one will never acknowledge His presence. Just something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sola Scriptora Posted December 27, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 155 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/23/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2004 Frog: You sound pretty hardened. Do you believe in cause and effect? If you see a ball rolling, do you say nothing caused it to roll? If you see an explosion, do you say nothing caused it? If you see a painting, do you say nothing caused it? If you see a baby, do you say nothing caused it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted December 27, 2004 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2004 This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. Dear Super Jew, I am not sure by your last post if you are willing to see what I found out about the website you referenced. What I found was that your referenced website is indeed biased and non-scientific (as defined as knowing the result without first gathering the data). As such, I do not throw out the alleged evidence you provided on a whim. I rationally discounted such politically biased pseudo-research. As I have stated before, I do not believe I am allowed to post websites that contradict such biased websites, so if you are interested in seeing what I saw, please PM me, and I will send you those links. Dear nebula, Unless one is willing to surrender to God, that one will never acknowledge His presence. I think you are quite correct in this. It is a conundrum. If one surrenders to god, one does not need to acknowledge god....otherwise to whom do you think that person surrendered? One does not surrender to entities that one does not believe exist. All very circular. Dear Sola Scriptora, I am sorry if you think me pretty hardened. I can only tell you that I try to be rational. 1) Do you believe in cause and effect? Depends on what you call cause and what you call effect. But generally, yes. 2) If you see a ball rolling, do you say nothing caused it to roll? If I see a ball rolling, I do not claim god must have done it. 3) If you see an explosion, do you say nothing caused it? If I see an explosion, I do not claim god must have done it (if it kills my enemies) or satan must have done it (if it kills my friends). 4) If you see a painting, do you say nothing caused it? If I see a painting, I do not claim god must have done it. 5) If you see a baby, do you say nothing caused it? If I see a baby, I do not claim that god must have done it. Regards, UndecidedFrog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sola Scriptora Posted December 27, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 155 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/23/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2004 (edited) Your answers are a bit deceitful. I wasn't asking if you thought God caused these things--I simply asked if you believe the examples I gave happen without a cause, yes or no? Or do you believe in causeless effects? And if you do, give me a few scientifically proven causeless effects. Also, you need tothink. The Universe is an EFFECT, no doubt about it--it had a beginning. Now then, what caused it? Be rational. Since the universe seems to be infinite, an infinite cause is required. Where does this lead us to. What kind of infinite cause could be responsible for our universe, and life itself? It must be the One who IS life itself. p.s. FYO, all the brances of science were pioneered by Christians. There is not one branch of science pioneered by an athiest. Everything we know today--the foundations of all science, was given to us by men who believed the God of the Bible was responsible for it all, and they saw his handiwork everywhere. They also said there could be no true science without the presupposition of belief in God. Your views are not only unscientific, but historically falsifiable as well. We are in the driver's seat, not the athiest. Prove God doesn't exist. Prove the infinite universe originated from nothing. Give me examples of things that come into existnece from absolutely nothing. Edited December 27, 2004 by Sola Scriptora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted December 28, 2004 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 28, 2004 Dear Sola Scriptora, This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. Your answers are a bit deceitful. I don't think so. I was hoping to save us some time. Or do you believe in causeless effects? And if you do, give me a few scientifically proven causeless effects. Apparently believers in a god believe in at least one causeless effect. They believe in god (an effect) yet they cannot attribute a cause to that. Of course, god cannot be proven to exist (or not exist), so god cannot be a scientifically proven causeless effect. Also, you need tothink. Yes, I think we all need to think, rationally. The Universe is an EFFECT, no doubt about it--it had a beginning. Now then, what caused it? Be rational. I do not accept that the universe is an effect. Assuming your logic, god(s) is/are effect(s). Now then, what caused god(s)? I am being rational. If there can be one exception, there can be more. FYO, all the brances of science were pioneered by Christians Sorry, but I do not believe that. It is very theocentric of you to even state that. Do you expect me and others who read this to believe that only christians are good scientists? There were many pioneers of science that were not christian. Prove God doesn't exist. Prove the infinite universe originated from nothing. Give me examples of things that come into existnece from absolutely nothing. I do not need to disprove anything that hasn't been proven in the first place. It is similar to me asking you to prove that the invisible pink unicorn in my garage doesn't exist. If you cannot, then you must believe in it? You would not. It is not rationally sound. Regards, UndecidedFrog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sola Scriptora Posted December 28, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 155 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/23/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 28, 2004 No frog, you are sidestepping and being quite irrational. comparing the question as to Ultimate Origins, and belief in an infinite Creator to pink unicorns??? Really! How can you even equivocate thge two. You are ridiculous. You have refused to answer my questions, because they nail you down and expose all your fundamental presuppositions as fallacies. So now you have taken your last and final stand--"who made God?" Thats is the athiest's ANSWER when pinned down with logic and facts--don't answer(because they cannot) just ask another question. Check mate my friend. God exists, and has proven Himself to hundreds of millions of people. I have seen people healed by Him. You don't know what you are talking about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyAngeL Posted December 28, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 155 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,464 Content Per Day: 1.02 Reputation: 8,810 Days Won: 57 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/12/1952 Share Posted December 28, 2004 (edited) These questions really aren't tough at all. God allows us to do anything we want. We make choices and sometimes there not good ones. Those who use their standing as "ministers" to get money and other things will answer for it and believe me it won't be pretty. Another thing..God never intended for you to burn in hell forever. He created hell for the devil and his angels not for us. He created us to have fellowship with him forever. We are the ones that chose to leave Him, but again hell still wasn't intended for us. As for Noah. God was in control of it all and would do whatever it took to get these creatures where He wanted them. Never short change God. The bottom line is He loves us. When we surrender to Him and His will in our lives we will live in victory. Edited December 28, 2004 by Rustyangel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted December 28, 2004 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 28, 2004 (edited) Dear Sola Scriptora, This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. You are ridiculous I forgive you your use of ad hominem against me. because they nail you down and expose all your fundamental presuppositions as fallacies. Actually, I am not the one who presupposed any deity. You don't know what you are talking about! I'm sorry you feel that way. However, I am certain I know what I am talking about. I also know what you are trying to do, which is to argue from incredulity, a false method in logic. Please see: (removed link) I don't think further discussion along these lines would be fruitful. Peace to you and your family. Regards, UndecidedFrog Edited December 29, 2004 by Dr. Luke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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