OEC and The New Heavens and New Earth

[enoob57]

His agenda is clearly put forth in his manner of post...

[Sheniy]

LookingForAnswers

    

Are you?

 

His agenda is clearly put forth in his manner of post...

Yeah. He seems to be looking for answers.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Just becuase YOU haven't seen it in the Scriptures doesn't mean I am the one making assumptions.   Adam died spritiually the minute he disobeyed God.  His physical death is connected to that because God said the following:

 

And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." (Gen 3:17-19)

 

So it is pretty clear that curse of death extended to man spiritually and physically due to Adam's disoebdience.   So if man were already set to die physically even if he hadn't sinned, that curse makes no sense.   So if man hadn't died spiritually, he would not have died physically.

 

 

There is nothing in this passage that says that death in the physical sense was part of the curse, just that till he died he would have to toil under the curse.

 

Well, again, we know it is part of the curse because when the curse is lifted and is no more in the book of Revelation, physical death is eliminated as well.   Again, we can get a good picture of what the earth was like before the curse by seeing what it will be like when the curse is eliminated.

 

It seems that God is giving us even more than what was in the initial creation as there will be no possibility of sin, which is different than the original creation.   In fact I would say that the world prior to Adam sinning was not incorruptible at all, as we all know that it was corrupted.   The new heavens and earth will in fact be incorruptible, something the original heavens and earth were not.

 

 

Well, of course it is going to be better, but that doesn't really serve as much of an argument.   God is restoring the earth to being at least as good as it was before the corruption, but we know it will be better in many ways such as having the New Jerusalem, having no need for a sun or moon.   Not saying that their won't be a sun or moon, but the Bible says that there will be no need for  them.

 

Then the Tree of Life had no actual purpose, it was just as symbol because God knew that man was going to fall away?  I have trouble with that.

 

Who said it had no actual purpose or that it was just a symbol?   I never said that.   I didn't offer what I said as the final word on its purpose.  

 

[Guest shiloh357]

It would've been weird to experience how the world transformed and how they personally transformed from perfection to aged.  Adam was created as a fully-mature adult male, so I wonder what his true age would've been.  Did it start at the curse or the day he was created?

The minute Adam died spiritually, his body along with all of creation began to decay.  The process of death was in play at that time.  Sin doesn't have just spirtiual consequences.  Well is age is a matter of speculation.   Some people speculate that he would have appeared by our reckoning to be a man in his early thirties, but who knows?

[Sheniy]

 

Just becuase YOU haven't seen it in the Scriptures doesn't mean I am the one making assumptions.   Adam died spritiually the minute he disobeyed God.  His physical death is connected to that because God said the following:

 

And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." (Gen 3:17-19)

 

So it is pretty clear that curse of death extended to man spiritually and physically due to Adam's disoebdience.   So if man were already set to die physically even if he hadn't sinned, that curse makes no sense.   So if man hadn't died spiritually, he would not have died physically.

 

There is nothing in this passage that says that death in the physical sense was part of the curse, just that till he died he would have to toil under the curse.

 

I agree. I don't think that verse proves a connection between physical and spiritual death. You seem to be speculating, Shiloh.

 

Gen 2:17

but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

 

I think we all agree this refers to Adam's spiritual death, or separation from God, due to Adam's disobedience.

 

However, Adam lived to be 930 years old, so this can't be referring to physical death, which did not occur within a day, as the verse suggests.

 

So, it is possible that physical death was a natural part of God's creation.  Immortality was intended for us, given by the tree of life, then taken away at the fall of man (see verse below). Therefore, death is a consequence of the fall, but not necessarily caused by it. Also, as someone else stated (can't find the post), God took away our immortality (the tree of life) after the fall to protect us from the pain and misery of eternal separation from God (aka hell on earth).  It will be returned in the new heaven and new earth.

Gen 3:23-25

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

 

I think someone else posted something similar, but I couldn't find it.

[OldSchool2]

 

 

 

 

I have never thought of Genesis 1-3 as a parable.

Well, then what do you think of it as?

 

God telling us the story of how the earth was recreated (my belief) and the first man created in Gods image. No parable, just the facts.Just curious here OS, Why dont you see this literally?

 

Well, if it was meant as literal history, why is the fall of mankind not referenced in any other book of the Old Testament? And, as I posted to LookingForAnswers, a parable doesn't need to account for every aspect of the narrative, e.g., "why would an immortal being need a Tree of Life?" All it needs is the moral of the story.Also, unlike Shiloh, I don't have to jump through hermeneutic hoops to resolve other events relative to the fall of man.It reads like a parable, a parable that is literally fleshed-out in the opening of John's Gospel.

 

A parable is a story, fictional, making a point.

Since Adam is referenced in the New Testament even by Jesus and Paul, then that settles that for me-he is a real person, no story at all.

In fact, paul says he was the first man, and that all died because of one mans sin-Adam. Does that sound like a fictional story? ...

 

It could be a legal hypothetical used to illustrate the very real imputation of God's righteousness to us.

Jesus used many parables that didn't have to be historically true to be morally true, which is the point of any parable.

[OldSchool2]

 

Well, if it was meant as literal history, why is the fall of mankind not referenced in any other book of the Old Testament? And, as I posted to LookingForAnswers, a parable doesn't need to account for every aspect of the narrative, e.g., "why would an immortal being need a Tree of Life?" All it needs is the moral of the story.

Also, unlike Shiloh, I don't have to jump through hermeneutic hoops to resolve other events relative to the fall of man.

It reads like a parable, a parable that is literally fleshed-out in the opening of John's Gospel.

 

The creation account of Genesis 1-3 does not read as a parable by any stretch of the imagination.  It has none of the hallmarks of a parable.

 

So talking snakes and "magic" trees aren't the imaginative hallmarks of an Aesop's parable?

And I asked you what you thought Genesis 1-3 was, not what you thought it wasn't.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Just becuase YOU haven't seen it in the Scriptures doesn't mean I am the one making assumptions.   Adam died spritiually the minute he disobeyed God.  His physical death is connected to that because God said the following:

 

And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." (Gen 3:17-19)

 

So it is pretty clear that curse of death extended to man spiritually and physically due to Adam's disoebdience.   So if man were already set to die physically even if he hadn't sinned, that curse makes no sense.   So if man hadn't died spiritually, he would not have died physically.

 

There is nothing in this passage that says that death in the physical sense was part of the curse, just that till he died he would have to toil under the curse.

 

I agree. I don't think that verse proves a connection between physical and spiritual death. You seem to be speculating, Shiloh.

 

Gen 2:17

but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

 

I think we all agree this refers to Adam's spiritual death, or separation from God, due to Adam's disobedience.

 

However, Adam lived to be 930 years old, so this can't be referring to physical death, which did not occur within a day, as the verse suggests.

 

Yes, Adam did die spriitually the day he ate from the fruit.  But you are assuming that sin only has spiritual consequences.   But let's look at what God actually said to Adam in Gen. 2:17:  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

The last phrase in Hebrew reads, "m'menoo ki b'yom akhelkha m'menoomot t'mut"  The grammatical structure in the Heberw indicates both an immediate death and a process of death.  There are two deaths suggested by the Hebrew.   That makes plenty of room for both spirtual death which happened immediately and physical death which took longer and is a symptom of man's separation from God.

 

Keep in mind that it was the life of God that animated man spritually AND physcially.  God breathed His own life into Adam.  So when Adam was separated from God, he was separated completely, physically and spiritually.

 

So, it is possible that physical death was a natural part of God's creation. 

 

Death is not part of God character.  Death is not something that God would engineer into creation.  To suggest that God would do such a thing contradicts His revealed nature. 

 

 

Immortality was intended for us, given by the tree of life, then taken away at the fall of man (see verse below). Therefore, death is a consequence of the fall, but not necessarily caused by it. Also, as someone else stated (can't find the post), God took away our immortality (the tree of life) after the fall to protect us from the pain and misery of eternal separation from God (aka hell on earth).  It will be returned in the new heaven and new earth.

 

 

That is not theologically tenable.   Adam's life came from God, both spriitually and physically.  He did not gain anything from the tree of life that he had didn't arleady have from God.  Adam had eternal life, not immortality.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Well, if it was meant as literal history, why is the fall of mankind not referenced in any other book of the Old Testament? And, as I posted to LookingForAnswers, a parable doesn't need to account for every aspect of the narrative, e.g., "why would an immortal being need a Tree of Life?" All it needs is the moral of the story.

Also, unlike Shiloh, I don't have to jump through hermeneutic hoops to resolve other events relative to the fall of man.

It reads like a parable, a parable that is literally fleshed-out in the opening of John's Gospel.

 

The creation account of Genesis 1-3 does not read as a parable by any stretch of the imagination.  It has none of the hallmarks of a parable.

 

So talking snakes and "magic" trees aren't the imaginative hallmarks of an Aesop's parable?

And I asked you what you thought Genesis 1-3 was, not what you thought it wasn't.

 

 

Again with the mockery of the word of God.  Why do you hate the Bible so much???  Sorry, but you don't anything about how textual analysis works.

[Organic Medicine]

 

Old Earth Creationism and the New Heavens and New Earth

 

One major tenet or belief of OEC is the belief not only that the earth is old in terms of millions or even billions of years as science purports, but also that physical death pre-dates the sin of Adam.

 

OEC proponents like Norm Geisler assert that Adam’s sin only brought about the spiritual death of mankind.  His contention is true that Romans 5:12-21 only speaks of the sin bringing about separation (spiritual death) of man from God.   Man died spiritually in the Garden of Eden, but death of animal life predates the events spoken of in Genesis 3.

 

The problem for us then is what exactly God defines as, “good.”   

 

Now let’s just assume for a minute that OEC is correct.  In Genesis 1:31 it says that God looked upon all that He had created for the last some 4.5 billions years, looked upon all of the death and decay in the world He had made and declared it to be “Tov Meod”  (very good) Tov Meod is an emphatic statement.  It refers to a level of “goodness” that can’t be improved upon; it is as good as it is gets.  

 

So God who engineered death and decay into His creation declares that the earth is as good as it can ever be.  God can’t be in error and He can’t create imperfection because there is no imperfection in Him.   So based on Genesis 1:31, a world that has billions of years of death and decay BEFORE sin was in the earth, was in a state of perfection.

 

Now fast forward to the end of the age in the book of Revelation chapters 21 and 22.  

 

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.  Rev 21:1-5

 

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: Rev 22:1-3

 

Compare this with the following end times description offered by Isaiah: 

 

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. Isa 11:6-9

 

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Isa 65:17-25

 

Notice that in connection with Christ’s reign in the New Heavens and New Earth  the Bible speaks of no more curse, pain, death, tears, and this includes the animal kingdom according to the passages listed above all of which refer to the same time period.

 

All of this occurs AFTER sin is eradicated from the world.  We can know what the original earth was like before sin by looking at what the world will be like after sin is gone.  

 

Yet the OEC would have us believe that the death and decay, the predator/prey relationship that existed between animals all of that was part of what God called “very good.”  

 

So if that is what the world was like prior to sin, how come we don’t get this same picture of the earth after sin is eradicated?   Why would God need to renovate the earth and get of all death of both man and beast if that was what He considered good and perfect to begin with?    Why is sin connected to the physical death of both man and beast in terms of eschatology, but not connected to them relevant to their original creation?

 

Clearly if death and decay were so good that God felt He had created the best possible world for man to live in, it is hard to explain how God could have made a better world with no death of any man or animal.   Is the world with death and decay better than the one made with no death of any kind of animal or human being?   If the latter is better, than it stands to reason, it would have to have been at least as good as the original, and that means the original earth had no death either.   The OEC view that death and decay within the created order existed prior to man’s sin doesn’t hold water, theologically  because death and decay among the animals is connected to  sin in Revelation 21.

 I am new here ,and not of a protestant or American background,so my refences may be diffrent from yours.

 First of all ,I believe in an old earth ,but also in Creation by God, within a limited time . I also believe that the bible is God's Testament to His flock ,

before He finally judges us . It is not the only testament He has put out, since He created the 'world' but the LAST,and therefore the most important. 

 

If  we see the bible ,as saying everything God has ever had to say to us since time began ,we will never grow to be the great créations we were,

but like children ,who cannot let go of our true ,but basic exercise book .   I think God maybe preparing us for Heaven ,right here on earth ,by challenging us . If people lose their faith because there is an  'error in the bible' ,they don't have the gift of the 'Spirit' ,which cannot be doubted,  while All the Facts one can discuss without ever being sure .