LookingForAnswers Posted February 21, 2014 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,033 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 67 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 21, 2014 Enoch, may I ask you a very serious question.... Prior to seeing a picture of someone's view of Numbers 2, when you read the pasaage did you think to yourself...that sure sounds like a cross? Or was it after seeing the picture above that you started to view Number 2 that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted February 22, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 1. Yes, God is the author. But he used men as his vessels. What manner he did that is an interesting discusson to have. 2a. Yes it would be fair. B. Apparently He did so in Moby Dick, War and Peace and the Koran to name a few. ========================================================================= These boards all but died. Everyone now must be YEC'ers It's about time!!! Yes, God is the author. But he used men as his vessels. in response to {GOD Is THE AUTHOR} Yes, HE surely did. Yes it would be fair. in response to {Would it be a Fair Statement to say that GOD is a Mathematical Genius 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ----> ??} Thought you might agree Apparently He did so in Moby Dick, War and Peace and the Koran to name a few. in response to {Has GOD created any other Code in any other Books?} Would you like me to elucidate the "Elephant in the Room" Logic Flaw with your parallel? Are you saying that GOD "authored": Moby Dick, War and Peace and the Koran to name a few?? Because..... for your point to be cogent, coherent, and relevant the answer to my question would have to be...Yes. See the problem? Moreover, even if there are "codes" in these other books.....does that preclude the Fact that GOD did it in HIS? Are you aware that "Coding" has been around for thousands of years? Are you aware that One of (if not the) MAIN Reasons the Allies Defeated Germany/Japan in WW II was that they "Cracked" their respective codes. In fact, up until the Battle of El Alamein the Allies were getting their respective "butts" kicked....what turned the TIDE..... The ALLIES Cracked The CODES!! As a Matter of Fact, the Allies never lost another Major Battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted February 22, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 Enoch, may I ask you a very serious question.... Prior to seeing a picture of someone's view of Numbers 2, when you read the pasaage did you think to yourself...that sure sounds like a cross? Or was it after seeing the picture above that you started to view Number 2 that way? ====================================================================================== Prior to seeing a picture of someone's view of Numbers 2, when you read the pasaage did you think to yourself...that sure sounds like a cross? No, I surely didn't. Or was it after seeing the picture above that you started to view Number 2 that way? It was after. Do you have some kind of a point lurking here? Are you saying that since I didn't notice it personally then it must not be True? Are you saying that since I personally failed to recognize the fact ...that it should be dismissed? Conceptually.....if I, on my Quest for TRUTH, come across connections/parallels/ or discover things that I never contemplated personally.... I should summarily disregard them? So when I was 4 or 5 years old and I was attempting to tie my shoes (which all resulted in knots ) .... I should not have listened to my Mother and watched her demonstrate the appropriate technique; because......I personally, didn't think of it? Are these the "Serious" questions that you needed answers to?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-seeker Posted February 22, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 589 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/06/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2014 Apparently He did so in Moby Dick, War and Peace and the Koran to name a few. in response to {Has GOD created any other Code in any other Books?} Would you like me to elucidate the "Elephant in the Room" Logic Flaw with your parallel? Are you saying that GOD "authored": Moby Dick, War and Peace and the Koran to name a few?? Because..... for your point to be cogent, coherent, and relevant the answer to my question would have to be...Yes. See the problem? Moreover, even if there are "codes" in these other books.....does that preclude the Fact that GOD did it in HIS? Are you aware that "Coding" has been around for thousands of years? Are you aware that One of (if not the) MAIN Reasons the Allies Defeated Germany/Japan in WW II was that they "Cracked" their respective codes. In fact, up until the Battle of El Alamein the Allies were getting their respective "butts" kicked....what turned the TIDE..... The ALLIES Cracked The CODES!! As a Matter of Fact, the Allies never lost another Major Battle. I think you are missing his point about the codes in Moby Dick and elsewhere. He is accusing you of circular reasoning. You point to the codes in Scripture as evidence of its inspiration. He counters and says, similar codes are found in non-sacred texts. Your reply seems to be, "yeah, but they are not inspired." The point is, the "code" search doesn't prove anything. IF Scripture were the ONLY text which this hermeneutic (or whatever it is) revealed, then you might have a leg to stand on. As it is, you are assuming the inspiration of Scripture in order to prove (via the CODE argument) that Scripture is the only inspired text. clb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted February 22, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 Apparently He did so in Moby Dick, War and Peace and the Koran to name a few. in response to {Has GOD created any other Code in any other Books?} Would you like me to elucidate the "Elephant in the Room" Logic Flaw with your parallel? Are you saying that GOD "authored": Moby Dick, War and Peace and the Koran to name a few?? Because..... for your point to be cogent, coherent, and relevant the answer to my question would have to be...Yes. See the problem? Moreover, even if there are "codes" in these other books.....does that preclude the Fact that GOD did it in HIS? Are you aware that "Coding" has been around for thousands of years? Are you aware that One of (if not the) MAIN Reasons the Allies Defeated Germany/Japan in WW II was that they "Cracked" their respective codes. In fact, up until the Battle of El Alamein the Allies were getting their respective "butts" kicked....what turned the TIDE..... The ALLIES Cracked The CODES!! As a Matter of Fact, the Allies never lost another Major Battle. I think you are missing his point about the codes in Moby Dick and elsewhere. He is accusing you of circular reasoning. You point to the codes in Scripture as evidence of its inspiration. He counters and says, similar codes are found in non-sacred texts. Your reply seems to be, "yeah, but they are not inspired." The point is, the "code" search doesn't prove anything. IF Scripture were the ONLY text which this hermeneutic (or whatever it is) revealed, then you might have a leg to stand on. As it is, you are assuming the inspiration of Scripture in order to prove (via the CODE argument) that Scripture is the only inspired text. clb =========================================================================== He is accusing you of circular reasoning. There is no "circular reasoning". I think you may be MIS-terming again. You point to the codes in Scripture as evidence of its inspiration. I point to the "Codes" as it appears that some Scripture was given to the "Penner's" Letter by Letter. He counters and says, similar codes are found in non-sacred texts. For Example?? And, It's Irrelevant. Codes are Codes. Your term "Similar" is Non-Sequitur. Please show one, Like this...... Your reply seems to be, "yeah, but they are not inspired." Yes, That's the Point. The Author is The "KEY" evidence along with the Technique and Product in this specific case. The point is, the "code" search doesn't prove anything. Yes it does, as I've clearly shown. IF Scripture were the ONLY text which this hermeneutic (or whatever it is) revealed, then you might have a leg to stand on. Why? We have the ability to write text.......then: therefore; CODE as proven quite demonstrably. Why would that preclude GOD "coding". Not following your logic here?? As it is, you are assuming the inspiration of Scripture in order to prove (via the CODE argument) that Scripture is the only inspired text. What in the World? You're mixing up the concept Sir. I'm not assuming the "inspiratiion" of Scripture...it's a Fact. I'm not saying just because Scripture is "inspired" that = the Validity of Codes or Coding. I realize, man has the ability and capability to CODE and has used codes throughout history, it's quite apparent. However, the fact that you can find a "Code" in Moby Dick that Say's "GOD is watching" or whatever, doesn't preclude the Fact.... or render the concept that GOD uses "Codes" in Scripture, erroneous or of null effect. Follow? Also, Please list some of the Codes found in these books. More Importantly, please show the exact technique employed to "divine" each said code. Bear in mind, that the only one I provided an example of was based on..... USING SEVENS (SEE: Above) which the number is quite well established in Scripture. I'm sure based on just probability and your convention, people can come up with alot of "alleged" codes in just about any document. And again, as I've mentioned, The One that really ASTOUNDS ME is the Numbers 2 passage....which is not based on any codes and drives home the point ALL BY ITSELF..... the whole point of the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LookingForAnswers Posted February 22, 2014 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,033 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 67 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2014 Would you like me to elucidate the "Elephant in the Room" Logic Flaw with your parallel? Are you saying that GOD "authored": Moby Dick, War and Peace and the Koran to name a few?? Because..... for your point to be cogent, coherent, and relevant the answer to my question would have to be...Yes. See the problem? Moreover, even if there are "codes" in these other books.....does that preclude the Fact that GOD did it in HIS? Are you aware that "Coding" has been around for thousands of years? Are you aware that One of (if not the) MAIN Reasons the Allies Defeated Germany/Japan in WW II was that they "Cracked" their respective codes. In fact, up until the Battle of El Alamein the Allies were getting their respective "butts" kicked....what turned the TIDE..... The ALLIES Cracked The CODES!! As a Matter of Fact, the Allies never lost another Major Battle. A quick sidebar...you were giving CLB posting advice, I would like to do the same to you. If you are going to quote individual parts of a post separately, there is no reason to quote the post as a whole prior to doing that. This make the thread harder to follow and almost impossible to do so on a mobile device. Now, back to the topic... I am not saying God was the author of those books, I am saying that God is not the author the the hidden codes because there are in fact no hidden codes. Finding these codes in large amounts of letter is a type of Apophenia, people see patterns where none exist. Statistically speaking they are expected in large groups of characters, but they happen by random chance and not design. The reason Moby Dick predicted the death of Princes Di is not because Melville had the power to see the future, but because you can apply an algorithm to any large group of characters and find messages. Did you find time to read the link I gave from the Institute of Mathematical Statistics? In order for the idea that God put these codes into His Word is not supported unless it is unique to God's word, and it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LookingForAnswers Posted February 22, 2014 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,033 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 67 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) It was after. Do you have some kind of a point lurking here? Are you saying that since I didn't notice it personally then it must not be True? Are you saying that since I personally failed to recognize the fact ...that it should be dismissed? Conceptually.....if I, on my Quest for TRUTH, come across connections/parallels/ or discover things that I never contemplated personally.... I should summarily disregard them? So when I was 4 or 5 years old and I was attempting to tie my shoes (which all resulted in knots ) .... I should not have listened to my Mother and watched her demonstrate the appropriate technique; because......I personally, didn't think of it? Are these the "Serious" questions that you needed answers to?? The point is that maybe you didn't see it because it was not there. Reading the text does not make on think of a cross until you see the picture, then you go "oh yea". Perhaps that is because there is no cross in the text The power of suggestion is very powerful. It is why 10,000 people will see Jesus on burnt toast or hear "turn me on dead man" when listening to the Beatles backwards. As for your shoe tying, despite your admiration for 7th grade text books I would hope you have progressed since then. Edited February 22, 2014 by LookingForAnswers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 22, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 22, 2014 For reference, these were the "codes" found in Moby Dick: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 22, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Please show one, Like this...... I agree that these kinds of Codes have more validity to them than the Codes revealing current world events. But while these things are very fascinating and enlightening, using them for "proof" just opens the door to skepticism. If a person can't believe the unhidden prophecies of Messiah's birth, death, and resurrection being fulfilled in Jesus, why would they be convinced by these things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Organic Medicine Posted February 22, 2014 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 69 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/03/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2014 Blessings Looking, May I ask you a personal question?And I will tell you why I ask...........& I am being completely honest in what I am going to share with you................ I have red lot of your posts & it seems that you do believe in Almighty God & that He sent His only Begotten Son Christ Jesus.....I do think you are a Christian(am I correct?)And you admit that you don't believe(or are searching)many accounts as they are given in the Word to be true,,,,,,,please correct any wrong assumptions I may have..... Okay ,here's my experience(a brief testimony giving God Glory)I was once alot like you in I needed to rationalize many things in Gods Word for MYSELF....it did not make sense,Christ was my Lord & Savior but I had many reservations & constantly tried to discount or discredit the Bible..................the truth of it was that I wanted to be my own God & live life on my terms.....that was the real reasoning & motives behind my "looking for answers" So,my question is,what is yours?You already gave me the one about seeking the truth,,,,but why do you want there to be untruths....in other words,if any of Gods Word is not true,whats in it for you? I told you what was in it for me& it took alot to see my "truth",,,,,,,,is that a fair question? With love-in Christ,Kwik I Kwik, Thank you for asking, I hope it is ok but I am going to address your question and the statement from Enoch above. Let me start by saying that I do not have a problem with God's word and I would never seek to discredit or discount the Bible. Without the Bible we have nothing, we do not know of Jesus, we do not have salvation. And yes, I am a Christian, despite the seeker label assigned to me here.I have no issue with God, my hangup right now is with Christians. I can relate to Ghandi when he said "“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”. And I fully admit my experiences are limited to me and my location, but they were so consistent for years that I have a hard time not projecting them onto all Christians. I have seen the Bible used as a club to bludgeon people into the right "shape" to fit in with those wielding it. My issue is not with the Bible it is with what to me is a maddening inconsistency in how it is interpreted. Let me give you a couple of example from the last day or so. I have been told that in this one verse the first half clearly means God used words and the second half is clearly figurative....By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. To me that is so inconsistent, I view the whole thing as figurative, which to me makes a whole lot more sense. Then I am told that phrases like "His ears are open" "the Lord regretted" "spread out His wings" and many more are figurative but the phrase "and God said" is clearly not. It makes my head want to explode. Pick and side and stick to it. Then I have the different person tell me all that is needed is to be like a child to understand the Bible and then they turn around and tell me there is a hidden code that only some guy with a PHD in mathematics was able to figure out. So, which is it? Pick a side and stick to it. Is that too much to ask? And what angers me the most is when I disagree with human's views of the Bible I am accused of not loving the Lord or having an issue with His word or I have my very faith questioned. When that happens I go into defensive mode and lash back. I know it is wrong, but I am only human and I am working on it. If you think I say some things I should not you should see the things that I erase before hitting "post". All I am asking for a fair and honest exchange of information. I am very open to new things, I have changed my views on things almost monthly lately. But put me down or question my very faith and you could tell me the sky is blue and snow is white and I will out of habit argue with you. So yes, I am looking for answers, but not answers about God, but about us.I sympathise greatly with you . I have found too many christians limited in their general educationand history of the world to be able to interpret certain aspects of the bible .God I believeexpects us to take literally the New Testament, but the Old Testament is part of a larger history,including that of other countries and societies,and is an ongoing study.Being transformed by the Holy Spirit,makes us wonder at the glory of His wonderful creationand helps us to have confidence and be supported in His love, to be less obsessional aboutneeding to interpret the bible, as if it was a game a code. I think it is OK and good but I seea similiarity,in the conspiracy addicts, and such christians ,which is not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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