Proof of GOD, (without attacking Old Earth or evolution)

[jerryR34]

 

 

You have only three options:

 

1. The Universe has always existed (in Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics);

2. The Universe created itself (in Violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics); or

3. The Universe was Created by GOD.

 

Again, false dichotomy.  Current scientific consensus is that the universe came from a point of singularity, and the universe is expanding.  This makes this argument moot.

 

 

 

 

Hello Jerry.

 

I don't exactly adhere to all of Enoch's assumptions. Actually he and I disagree and a lot.  But I am a Christian.

 

I've always wondered about this: if the universe came from a point of singularity, and (philosophically speaking) there is a cause/effect relationship behind every event, when and why did the universe begin to expand?  There is no creator to "start anything". What got point 0 to point 0.oooo1?  It is already begging the question to say that a unit (however small) of matter just existed.  But then to say that this "exploded" begs the question, "Why at that point in time?"  Why not later?  Why not before?  For one like myself raised on philosophy the answer is "there is none".  It all goes back to Aristotle's Prime Mover (although Christianized, and not as Aquinas supposed).

 

clb

 

The best read I've had on this so far is The Grand Design by Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow.  I think the begging of your questions comes from an argument of incredulity.  Since you can't imagine it (no offense intended here - I think there are very few who can, myself included) you jump to an imaginable conclusion.

[a-seeker]

 

 

 

You have only three options:

 

1. The Universe has always existed (in Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics);

2. The Universe created itself (in Violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics); or

3. The Universe was Created by GOD.

 

Again, false dichotomy.  Current scientific consensus is that the universe came from a point of singularity, and the universe is expanding.  This makes this argument moot.

 

 

 

 

Hello Jerry.

 

I don't exactly adhere to all of Enoch's assumptions. Actually he and I disagree and a lot.  But I am a Christian.

 

I've always wondered about this: if the universe came from a point of singularity, and (philosophically speaking) there is a cause/effect relationship behind every event, when and why did the universe begin to expand?  There is no creator to "start anything". What got point 0 to point 0.oooo1?  It is already begging the question to say that a unit (however small) of matter just existed.  But then to say that this "exploded" begs the question, "Why at that point in time?"  Why not later?  Why not before?  For one like myself raised on philosophy the answer is "there is none".  It all goes back to Aristotle's Prime Mover (although Christianized, and not as Aquinas supposed).

 

clb

 

The best read I've had on this so far is The Grand Design by Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow.  I think the begging of your questions comes from an argument of incredulity.  Since you can't imagine it (no offense intended here - I think there are very few who can, myself included) you jump to an imaginable conclusion.

 

I'll look for the book.  But it is not a matter of the imagination (if by that you literally mean the faculty that creates images). Picturing God creating the world is no more imaginable than picturing a point of singularity exploding outward into 3-dimensionality.   It is a matter of the intellect, or comprehension.  The picture you set up seems to go against the principle of infinite regress.  If it does in fact, then I cannot accept it; unless I am to abandon logic entirely.

 

clb

 

clb

[jerryR34]

Well, argument from incredulity is a subset of argument from ignorance. From reading your posts, Connor, I would never insinuate that you are ignorant, on the contrary you seem sharper than I. I only say ignorance in that we have not found the answers yet. I think that if we would have stopped at God-did-it, we would have missed a lot of wonder - think telescopes, Hubble, LHC etc...Science is the search for God. We will never find him by natural means, but we will only harm ourselves by stopping the search. There are still a lot of us who believe in the bible no matter what we think the evidence tells us. If Enoch can't grasp that well...that's an argument from ignorance. GB.

[Fez]

Proof of God for me is so simple!

 

He spoke to me!

[jerryR34]

_{Bottom line...if a person did not know of the bible, there is no proof in nature that could lead him to Jesus.  I've been looking for that proof, but it's nowhere to be found.}

[Tolken]

JerryR34 -Bottom line...if a person did not know of the bible, there is no proof in nature that could lead him to Jesus.  I've been looking for that proof, but it's nowhere to be found.

 

True, we can posit an intelligence for the cause of the universe, earth, nature, humanity, etc. but otherwise only through the biblical record can we commit to a Faith based belief in the Christian God/Jesus.  Trust in the Bible as authoritative still demands Faith.There is no irrefutable proof that can lead to God or to Jesus, if there was then faith is rendered pointless. Yet Faith can be supported with reason and need not be blind.

[Guest]

_{Bottom line....}

 

_{if a person did not know of the bible,}

 

_{there is no proof in nature that could lead him to Jesus.} 

 

_{I've been looking for that proof, but it's nowhere to be found.}

 

~

 

Bottom Line

 

For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Matthew 25:29

 

You Had The Bible And Yet You Turned And Walked Away

 

And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. Matthew 11:17

 

So Logically Why Would You Now Expect

 

And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Mark 10:26-27

 

To See Jesus

 

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

 

And Yet

 

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20

[Fez]

_{Bottom line...if a person did not know of the bible, there is no proof in nature that could lead him to Jesus.  I've been looking for that proof, but it's nowhere to be found.}

Nope you are mistaken.

 

There is no need of proof leading to Jesus. All we have to do is open when He knocks.

 

It's called faith, and it does not come from knowledge of the bible (not in my case), it was a gift given to me by God. ( and when I got around to reading the bible after I was saved I began to understand that).

[Enoch2021]

JerryR34 -Bottom line...if a person did not know of the bible, there is no proof in nature that could lead him to Jesus.  I've been looking for that proof, but it's nowhere to be found.

 

True, we can posit an intelligence for the cause of the universe, earth, nature, humanity, etc. but otherwise only through the biblical record can we commit to a Faith based belief in the Christian God/Jesus.  Trust in the Bible as authoritative still demands Faith.There is no irrefutable proof that can lead to God or to Jesus, if there was then faith is rendered pointless. Yet Faith can be supported with reason and need not be blind.

 

 

===========================================================================

 

 

If I may Quote Shiloh earlier today........."BALONEY!!"

 

 

If you can put 2 or more concepts together into one coherent stream of thought you can Empirically PROVE the WORD!  How?  Prophecy.

 

Fact #1: To be the CREATOR HE has to be Outside of TIME (SEE: 1LOT)

 

Fact #2: (Among thousands):  (Daniel 9:25) "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

 

That's a Math Statement.  The Angel Gabriel put it on the Line......Predicting CHRIST'S Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem to the EXACT DAY 500 Years in ADVANCE!! 

 

 

What was it....a "Lucky Guess"??  :24:

[Sheniy]

Well, argument from incredulity is a subset of argument from ignorance. From reading your posts, Connor, I would never insinuate that you are ignorant, on the contrary you seem sharper than I. I only say ignorance in that we have not found the answers yet. I think that if we would have stopped at God-did-it, we would have missed a lot of wonder - think telescopes, Hubble, LHC etc...Science is the search for God. We will never find him by natural means, but we will only harm ourselves by stopping the search. There are still a lot of us who believe in the bible no matter what we think the evidence tells us. If Enoch can't grasp that well...that's an argument from ignorance. GB.

 

I...I'm confused.  Do you believe the bible?  I assumed you didn't.  (sorry if I'm mistaken)

 

I agree with you that we will never find Him by natural means.  But I don't study science to find God.  I already know Him.  I study science because it's fascinating, and I love to figure out how things work.