Proof of GOD, (without attacking Old Earth or evolution)

[Fez]

 

Well, argument from incredulity is a subset of argument from ignorance. From reading your posts, Connor, I would never insinuate that you are ignorant, on the contrary you seem sharper than I. I only say ignorance in that we have not found the answers yet. I think that if we would have stopped at God-did-it, we would have missed a lot of wonder - think telescopes, Hubble, LHC etc...Science is the search for God. We will never find him by natural means, but we will only harm ourselves by stopping the search. There are still a lot of us who believe in the bible no matter what we think the evidence tells us. If Enoch can't grasp that well...that's an argument from ignorance. GB.

 

I...I'm confused.  Do you believe the bible?  I assumed you didn't.  (sorry if I'm mistaken)

 

I agree with you that we will never find Him by natural means.  But I don't study science to find God.  I already know Him.  I study science because it's fascinating, and I love to figure out how things work.  

 

But I see Him in my work daily. How can I not? In every tree, leaf, stream, flower, elephant, leopard, monkey, vast grass fields that look like snow when they are full of seed. The sun going down over the lake and a rainbow on the water...

 

But more than that. The feeling of Him, in me, out there. Complete peace I find nowhere else.

 

Of course you can see God in nature.

[Tolken]

Enoch2021 - What was it....a "Lucky Guess"??

 

No, it is called Faith. If absolute/irrefutable proof existed then Faith would not be necessary. As I've shown you before God as the creator because it states so in the Bible is circular reasoning... the proof depends on the truth of the statement itself.

 

God exists because the Bible says

The Bible is true because it is the Word of God

 

Both are based on non-proven assumptions.

 

****

There exists many refutations of biblical prophesy including Daniel.  A simple search will lead you to many examples of the prophecies being refuted based on both date and fulfillment.  Again, we are right back to Faith. 

[Sheniy]

 

 

Well, argument from incredulity is a subset of argument from ignorance. From reading your posts, Connor, I would never insinuate that you are ignorant, on the contrary you seem sharper than I. I only say ignorance in that we have not found the answers yet. I think that if we would have stopped at God-did-it, we would have missed a lot of wonder - think telescopes, Hubble, LHC etc...Science is the search for God. We will never find him by natural means, but we will only harm ourselves by stopping the search. There are still a lot of us who believe in the bible no matter what we think the evidence tells us. If Enoch can't grasp that well...that's an argument from ignorance. GB.

 

I...I'm confused.  Do you believe the bible?  I assumed you didn't.  (sorry if I'm mistaken)

 

I agree with you that we will never find Him by natural means.  But I don't study science to find God.  I already know Him.  I study science because it's fascinating, and I love to figure out how things work.  

 

But I see Him in my work daily. How can I not? In every tree, leaf, stream, flower, elephant, leopard, monkey, vast grass fields that look like snow when they are full of seed. The sun going down over the lake and a rainbow on the water...

 

But more than that. The feeling of Him, in me, out there. Complete peace I find nowhere else.

 

Of course you can see God in nature.

 

 

Of course you can.  Because you know Him already.  There is evidence of God everywhere.  If you know Him, you can't NOT see His hand in nature.

 

  But what I said was God can't be found by natural means.  We can never prove He exists.  That's where faith comes in.  And faith comes from hearing the Word. 

 

 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."  John 1:1-14

Edited March 19, 2014 by Sheniy

[Enoch2021]

Enoch2021 - What was it....a "Lucky Guess"??

 

No, it is called Faith. If absolute/irrefutable proof existed then Faith would not be necessary. As I've shown you before God as the creator because it states so in the Bible is circular reasoning... the proof depends on the truth of the statement itself.

 

God exists because the Bible says

The Bible is true because it is the Word of God

 

Both are based on non-proven assumptions.

 

****

There exists many refutations of biblical prophesy including Daniel.  A simple search will lead you to many examples of the prophecies being refuted based on both date and fulfillment.  Again, we are right back to Faith. 

 

 

==========================================================================

 

No, it is called Faith. If absolute/irrefutable proof existed then Faith would not be necessary.

 

Well your problem is your Fallacious Faith Definition.  The 1st step is recognition.

 

As I've shown you before God as the creator because it states so in the Bible is circular reasoning... the proof depends on the truth of the statement itself.

 

Well yes it would be..... if that's what I said.  As I said to you before, You create Strawman Circular Arguments then you call it a Circular Argument. 

 

And you did it again, after I illustrated something very similar on the other thread (This sounds like a yahoo message board saying).......

 

"God exists because the Bible says

The Bible is true because it is the Word of God"

 

I never said that.  I gave a SPECIFIC Prophecy (not God is the Creator because the Bible says so nonsense) complete with a start and end point.  Can you show how that's a Circular Argument??, I'll get the Popcorn.

 

There exists many refutations of biblical prophesy including Daniel.  A simple search

 

A Blatant Generalized Unsupported Conjecture LOL...... "A simple search", eh?  You are well beyond your depth, I can assure you.

 

Bring it....with this Specific Prophesy.

 

Just fyi....you're already in Checkmate.

 

 

Then I'll post about 25 or more SPECIFIC ones in the OT concerning Christ to put an Exclamation Point on "PROOF".

 

 

PRAISE THE LORD !!!!!!!

[Tolken]

Sheniy -But what I said was God can't be found by natural means.  We can never prove He exists.  That's where faith comes in.  And faith comes from hearing the Word.

 

Exactly, unless one chooses to deny Ephesians 2:8-9  "...through faith...".

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

Well, argument from incredulity is a subset of argument from ignorance. From reading your posts, Connor, I would never insinuate that you are ignorant, on the contrary you seem sharper than I. I only say ignorance in that we have not found the answers yet. I think that if we would have stopped at God-did-it, we would have missed a lot of wonder - think telescopes, Hubble, LHC etc...Science is the search for God. We will never find him by natural means, but we will only harm ourselves by stopping the search. There are still a lot of us who believe in the bible no matter what we think the evidence tells us. If Enoch can't grasp that well...that's an argument from ignorance. GB.

 

I...I'm confused.  Do you believe the bible?  I assumed you didn't.  (sorry if I'm mistaken)

 

I agree with you that we will never find Him by natural means.  But I don't study science to find God.  I already know Him.  I study science because it's fascinating, and I love to figure out how things work.  

 

But I see Him in my work daily. How can I not? In every tree, leaf, stream, flower, elephant, leopard, monkey, vast grass fields that look like snow when they are full of seed. The sun going down over the lake and a rainbow on the water...

 

But more than that. The feeling of Him, in me, out there. Complete peace I find nowhere else.

 

Of course you can see God in nature.

 

 

Of course you can.  Because you know Him already.  There is evidence of God everywhere.  If you know Him, you can't NOT see His hand in nature.

 

  But what I said was God can't be found by natural means.  We can never prove He exists.  That's where faith comes in.  And faith comes from hearing the Word. 

 

 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."  John 1:1-14

 

 

 

==============================================================================

 

 

But what I said was God can't be found by natural means.  We can never prove He exists.  That's where faith comes in.  And faith comes from hearing the Word.

 

 

Just so we understand each other;

 

Define Natural Means?

 

Define Proof?

 

Define Biblical Faith?

 

Is Hearing Proof?  Or is it Blind Faith, from the Hearing?

 

Thanks

[Tolken]

Enoch2021 - Well your problem is your Fallacious Faith Definition.  The 1st step is recognition.

 

Then please explain Ephesians 2:8-9?  Explain why Faith is necessary if something is proved? All of your attempts at proofs ultimately refer back to the bible...simply put it is circular regardless of whether you mask it with 1LOT or not.  As you are aware or should be there are other options, I would suggest that you contact a number apologists to inform them that you have proofs that don’t require faith. William Lane Craig would be very interested as he can take his book “Reasonable Faith” of the market..

 

A Blatant Generalized Unsupported Conjecture LOL...... "A simple search", eh?  You are well beyond your depth, I can assure you.

Arrogance becomes you... I don’t choose to post refutations from Atheist sites.  That is why I chose to offer a “blatant generalized unsupported conjecture”...which by the way seems to be an excessive use of adjectives.  The best I will do is you can look up Chris Sandoval, Richard Carrier, Curt van den Heuvel, Jim Lippard, and a few others, take your prophesy proofs up with them.

Just fyi....you're already in Checkmate.Then I'll post about 25 or more SPECIFIC ones in the OT concerning Christ to put an Exclamation Point on "PROOF".

You must be a very poor chess player if you think you have even approached checkmate.

 

Define Natural Means?

You will not prove God though physics, geology, biology, etc.  Nature can certainly point to a creator but it can not prove God.

Define Proof?

Evidence that supports a specified assertion. Irrefutable certainty and validity.

Define Biblical Faith?

Certainty based on belief. Confidence that doesn’t reside on concrete evidence. 

Is Hearing Proof?  Or is it Blind Faith, from the Hearing?

I believe Sheniy, and she may correct me if I am mistaken, means hearing the Word draws one to the Bible.  That the Word of God is fundamental to our beliefs.  Fideism is blind faith, the arguments for God, for the Bible give “reason” to faith. 

 

[Sheniy]

 

But what I said was God can't be found by natural means.  We can never prove He exists.  That's where faith comes in.  And faith comes from hearing the Word.

 

 

Just so we understand each other;

 

Define Natural Means?

 

Define Proof?

 

Define Biblical Faith?

 

Is Hearing Proof?  Or is it Blind Faith, from the Hearing?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

Um, okay.

 

Natural means: by means of nature

proof:  evidence or argument that compels one to accept an assertion as true

Faith: A strong or unshakable belief in God/Jesus/the Bible, especially without proof or evidence

 

I think you misunderstood me.  I didn't say hearing the Word is proof of God. (is that what you thought I said? Otherwise I don't understand the purpose of your questions).  If we're seeking God, we look to His Word.  I paraphrased last time, but here is the actual verse.

 

Romans 10:17 "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

 

Hearing the Word doesn't magically save us, but it does have power. 

 

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

 

James 1:18 "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures."

 

The Holy Spirit calls each of us to faith.  The Bible is the message of that faith, but we can't accept it without the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

 1 Corinthians 2:10-14  "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

 

Our faith is sustained by the Word, not by looking for physical evidence or logical arguments.

 

1 Corinthians 2:5 "so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God."

 

2 Corinthians 5:7 "for we walk by faith, not by sight--"

Hebrews 11:1-3  "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

 

If one is convinced of God only by clever arguments and physical evidence, then they can be unconvinced the same way.  Is that true faith?

 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

================================================================================

 

Then please explain Ephesians 2:8-9?

 

Why?  Appears pretty self explanatory...

 

(Ephesians 2:8-9) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  {9} Not of works, lest any man should boast."

 

 

Define Faith?

 

Define Substance? 

 

 

simply put it is circular regardless of whether you mask it with 1LOT or not.  As you are aware or should be there are other options,

 

Baseless Unsupported Assertion (Again)

 

Go ahead and list your other options and I'll nail them......That's probably why you didn't list any.

 

 

Arrogance becomes you... I don’t choose to post refutations from Atheist sites.

 

It's not arrogance, just old hat...I've seen and refuted all of them @ one time or another.  But since you never support your assertions we just won't know.

 

 

“blatant generalized unsupported conjecture”...which by the way seems to be an excessive use of adjectives.

 

I like to be specific; it seemed to characterize this statement aptly.....

 

"There exists many refutations of biblical prophesy including Daniel.  A simple search....."

 

Chris Sandoval, Richard Carrier, Curt van den Heuvel, Jim Lippard, and a few others, take your prophesy proofs up with them

a number apologists

William Lane Craig would be very interested as he can take his book “Reasonable Faith” of the market..

 

You sure like dropping Names and "numbers".  Well I'm talking with YOU and YOU were the one throwing your "Baseless Unsupported Generalized Claims".  I would be more than happy to take it up with them, go ahead and bring them on here.

 

or

 

Should I call these guys up and say......"Hey, Tolken said you....." ??  LOL  Go ahead give me their contact information and I'll go ahead and Tighten their Shot Group.

 

"a number of apologists" and  "a few others" eh?  You have an eye for attention to detail...No generalizations or ambiguity for you.

 

William Lane Craig and his book.  So are you saying that if somebody has a book "in the Market" this denotes some validity or "it must be True" scenario?

 

Also look up "Appeal to Authority" and "Argument to Popularity", Both Fallacies....I've posted them to you in the past, you use them constantly.

 

 

You must be a very poor chess player if you think you have even approached checkmate.

 

Ya Think?  I guess that's why you didn't post any rebuttal or support for the "claim".

 

Define Natural Means?

You will not prove God though physics, geology, biology, etc.  Nature can certainly point to a creator but it can not prove God.

Define Proof?

Evidence that supports a specified assertion. Irrefutable certainty and validity.

Define Biblical Faith?

Certainty based on belief. Confidence that doesn’t reside on concrete evidence.

Is Hearing Proof?  Or is it Blind Faith, from the Hearing?

 

 

These questions weren't addressed to you. I know your position, and...I've already comprehensively refuted these. 

 

We may have to drill down on "Evidence" and the "Concrete" variety...maybe another time, it's getting late.

[Tolken]

Define Faith?

 

See my previous post.

 

Define Substance?  

 

No, let’s not take a term out of context but rather put it into context.  Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, ...” “Substance” can be interpreted a number of ways but for the sake of your argument we will leave it at substance. You wrongly focus all of your interpretation on that very word “substance” and neglect the meaning of the verse.  “Hoped for” is the key. As a child if you “hoped for” a red rider BB gun, one could conclude that the BB gun has “substance” but at present it is only a “hope”.  Obviously then if you do receive the BB gun you would no longer “hope”...why would you hope for something that you already have.  Same with Faith, “substance” is hoped for not as of yet actualized.

But the verse continues “..., the evidence of things not seen.” If you can’t see the “evidence” how can you prove it exists? The ability to see the effect in no way authenticates the cause. Same with Faith is “not seen”. We can see the effects and and by Faith we believe in the cause, God.

 

I’ll ignore the rest of your response as you seem to be having enough difficulty with the definition of Faith.