Devoted more to the Scriptures than to the God of the Scriptures?

[nebula]

Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:  and they are they which testify of me.  John 5:39

I do not understand what you hear with this?

 

Search the Scriptures: = Jesus tells them they need to search the Scriptures - not learn the Scriptures nor read the Scriptures, but search the Scriptures - meaning "look for the witness there."

 

for in them ye think ye have eternal life: = They think they have eternal life in the Scriptures.

 

and they are they which testify of me. = But the Scriptures actually testify of Jesus. Jesus is saying that the evidene of who He is in right there in the Scriptures.

 

 

Of course, I find it very odd to hear anyone claim that the Pharisees did not know the Scriptures.

 

"...[The Pharisees] were concerned that the spiritual life of the people should be centered in the Torah and the Synagogue. While the Sadducean priesthood prided itself upon its aristocracy of blood (Sanh. iv. 2; Mid. v. 4; Ket. 25a; Josephus, "Contra Ap." i., § 7), the Pharisees created an aristocracy of learning instead, declaring a bastard who is a student of the Law to be higher in rank than an ignorant high priest (Hor. 13a), "

 

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12087-pharisees

The Pharisees had a basic knowledge of scripture, but it wasn't based on pure knowledge.  It was based on a mixture of scripture plus tradition along with things they were taught about the Bible from extra-Biblical means.  Let me put it to you this way.  There are people that spend all their time in the actual Bible learning from the Holy Spirit.  Then there are people who never actually read the Bible through, or perhaps read it once, but spend all of their time reading books about what is in the Bible.  That becomes their primary belief system.  It becomes based on all the extra-Biblical things they read, not the actual scriptures.  I agree with Shiloh's take, that they didn't really focus primarily on the scriptures themselves. 

 

As for this one verse, my biggest issue here isn't that I am arguing how much the Pharisees studied the Bible.  I have no way of knowing.  I can only speculate.  My biggest problem with that verse is that I know you are taking it out of context to make a point.  It is not saying that they think they have eternal life because they are such great students of the Word.  It just doesn't say that, so I am pointing out that you are taking it out of context.  If you simply want to speculate that the Pharisees surely knew the scriptures, that is one thing, but misusing a verse to supposedly prove it is quite another. 

 

Butero - what does "for in them ye think ye have eternal life:" mean to you?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Being devoted to the Scriptures is a spiritual concept wherein we study the Scriptures, not simply to gain knowledge for knowledge's sake, but to know God better. 

 

That's the point I read out of the article. He's rebuking those who read and study the Bible for knowledge and doctrine, but not to know God better.

 

yes and I am saying that isn't possible because the Bible IS doctrine at its core.   You can't read the Bible for doctrine and not know God better.

[enoob57]

Being devoted to the Scriptures is a spiritual concept wherein we study the Scriptures, not simply to gain knowledge for knowledge's sake, but to know God better.

 

That's the point I read out of the article. He's rebuking those who read and study the Bible for knowledge and doctrine, but not to know God better.

yes and I am saying that isn't possible because the Bible IS doctrine at its core.   You can't read the Bible for doctrine and not know God better.

1 Tim 4:16

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in

doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

KJV

[nebula]

yes and I am saying that isn't possible because the Bible IS doctrine at its core.   You can't read the Bible for doctrine and not know God better.

 

God is not a doctrine.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

yes and I am saying that isn't possible because the Bible IS doctrine at its core.   You can't read the Bible for doctrine and not know God better.

 

God is not a doctrine.

 

I am not saying God is a doctrine.  But the Bible is God's doctrine, His teachings.  The more you pursue His Word the more you know Him.  You cannot pursue the Word of God wihtout pursuing God because He is completely vested in it.  It is His own disclosure of Himself to man.

[nebula]

yes and I am saying that isn't possible because the Bible IS doctrine at its core.   You can't read the Bible for doctrine and not know God better.

1 Tim 4:16

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in

doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

KJV

Which doctrine?

The Catholic doctrine? The Presbyterian doctrine? The Lutheran doctrine? The Baptist doctrine? The Pentecostal doctrine?

The predestination doctrine? The free-will doctrine? The Universalism doctrine?

 

Or how about the doctrine that puts "what you think" above "how you love"?

[nebula]

I am not saying God is a doctrine.  But the Bible is God's doctrine, His teachings.  The more you pursue His Word the more you know Him.  You cannot pursue the Word of God wihtout pursuing God because He is completely vested in it.  It is His own disclosure of Himself to man.

 

If everyone read the Bible as God's disclosing of Himself to man rather than a book of rules and regs, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

yes and I am saying that isn't possible because the Bible IS doctrine at its core.   You can't read the Bible for doctrine and not know God better.

1 Tim 4:16

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in

doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

KJV

Which doctrine?

The Catholic doctrine? The Presbyterian doctrine? The Lutheran doctrine? The Baptist doctrine? The Pentecostal doctrine?

The predestination doctrine? The free-will doctrine? The Universalism doctrine?

 

Or how about the doctrine that puts "what you think" above "how you love"?

 

Denominational divisions tend to be more centered around tradiitons than essential teachings.   Most Christians are united over the essentials but differ  over secondary things that relate mostly to traditions within those groups, sprinkling, instruments or not, speaking in toungues, eschatology, music styles, Calvinsim vs. Arminianism, etc.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

I am not saying God is a doctrine.  But the Bible is God's doctrine, His teachings.  The more you pursue His Word the more you know Him.  You cannot pursue the Word of God wihtout pursuing God because He is completely vested in it.  It is His own disclosure of Himself to man.

 

If everyone read the Bible as God's disclosing of Himself to man rather than a book of rules and regs, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

The problem is that the author of the OP begins with false premise and his conclusion is likewise false.  The people who read the Bible for intellectual purposes never see God in it.     The author of OP simply lumps us all into the same box as if our devotion to the Scriptures and and proper interpretative processses are actually a hindrance to knowing God.

 

I would remind you that the very people who are characterized as being devoted to the Bible at the expense of being devoted to God, are the same people who are responsible for you having copies of the Bible in English and in other languages, as well.  The scholarly community is made up of people who see what they are doing as a ministry to the body of Christ, to make sure that people have readable, accurate and faithful translations of God's word in their hands.

 

Their devotion to strict accuracy is because this IS the word of a holy and sovereign God and they are held accountable by God personally for the work they are doing. They are doing their dead level best in all areas of research and linguistics to make sure that the works they produce are as accurate and faithful to God's original message as is possible with the resources available.   Many theologians have clocked in a lot of time around the world as missionaries and deacons in their churches as Sunday School teachers and even some as pastors.  They are not dry, dusty theologues sitting in ivory towers.  They are people who are passionate about God's Word and getting it right because the eternal fate of mankind hangs in the balance.   This not just any book to them.  It is God's word and it is worthy of their best efforts to get it right, because they wilil stand before God one day and given an account. 

[ajchurney]

Intense thread y'all!

Perhaps an important distinction to make here is the veracity and effectiveness of the scriptures themselves vs the individual or group's approach to the study and interpretation of those scriptures. This debate gets rightfully heated when it seems that the Bible itself is being questioned, as if there is something wrong with the Bible. This would be heretical and dangerous. The real debate here concerns one's approach and heart's attitude toward the Word of God and how one is attempting to use the Bible and what one intends to learn and gain from it. The discussion IMHO brings forth some clear points:

 

1) The rightly translated and interpreted scriptures are inseperable from God Himself and are the revealer on earth of who He is and what He commands of men

2) One can only rightly interpret scripture as aided and gifted by Holy Spirit, by illumination and revelation

3) Interpretation of scripture by fallen and faulty human intellect alone is bound to produce error and pride

 

It seems to me that much debate occurs in trying to determine the lines between #2 and #3. Every serious believer desires to be operating in #2 and not #3!! While there are language and translational issues regarding scripture that can be resolved by basically purely technical means (even an atheist could potentially participate here with accuracy), right interp of the scripture is the realm of Holy Spirit alone, which was what Jesus meant by saying there is "One Teacher". THE Teacher teaches THROUGH human teachers, but this has always been the rub. If a teacher is not actually submitted to the Teacher (Holy Spirit), then here comes the error and slants. Shiloh's point about true devotion to the scriptures indicates that there is relationship with Christ and Holy Spirit in the searching of His Word. Nebula's point about mere intellectual pursuits often doing more harm than good emphasizes #3, which is what the cults are filled with. JW's are typically more devoted to study (of THEIR material and doctrines) than most true Christians, for instance. But, because of the lack of Holy Spirit and faulty human approach, their error only increases year by year. I understand that the JW's have added to the issue by making their own faulty translation as well, but their cardinal doctrines were all codified when  they only used the KJV, which is an excellent translation in itself. 

There is nothing the matter with scripture itself, but only how the carnal mind and sinful nature, often aided by lying demonic spirits, attempts to understand them apart from a living relationship with God by the grace of Holy Spirit, because of the person and work of Jesus Christ. Submission and true humility to God is required to abide in this relationship, and thereby gain true understanding of His Holy Word. Intellectual pride is a barrier to true understanding, which is perhaps the greatest lesson to be gleaned from this particular discussion.

Let us strive to be scholars of the Spirit together!

Blessings, Andy