Church Doctrine and Tradition of men

[fruitfull77]

 

 

I don't agree with fruitful in the position he is taking in this discussion.  I don't believe that the scripture he is referencing is talking about a Christmas tree, and I don't believe Christians have to keep all the feast days.  That being said, Romans makes it clear that Fruitful or anyone else is accepted of God keeping those feast days and believing we must keep them.  Every time someone takes the position that they believe something is wrong, it seems that just believing that angers people that don't agree and they start the attacks based on law and grace.  If one believes that the church must keep certain festivals and observe certain days, they do so as unto the Lord.  If someone else believes this is not necessary, they don't observe them as unto the Lord.  Obviously, I am replying to His Disciple 3, not Shiloh357. 

 

I have seen that scripture brought up before concerning Christmas trees.  I can honestly see how someone can make the connection, but lets make one thing clear.  I have never personally met anyone that worshipped a Christmas tree.  They remind us of the season and are nice to look at, and that is it.  I don't believe a Christmas tree would be an idol for the vast majority of people.  The only reason I don't say everyone is there is always some nut that will worship anything.  There was a church where the people worshipped a dead rock and roll singer, so I am not going to rule out anything, but I don't know anyone personally that sees a Christmas tree as a deity deserving worship.  I also find it unlikely that the idol described in the OT was anything like a Christmas tree, even though it may sound like a Christmas tree when you just casually read the passage. 

I have a big plant and small tree in my living-there is nothing wrong with one. But when you bring an evergreen tree in and decorate it on Dec 25 or thereabouts you are following a pagan tradition, even tho there is no worshiping on your part.  that is the gist of it. you get to decide whether that applies to us today.

 

How about when I set up a plastic tree and decorate it in November? 

 

Even tho it sounds like you are mocking God's warnings it would only  apply when you are doing the event surrounding the time frame around a recognized pagan holiday

[fruitfull77]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Would you say  Jeremiah 10: 1-4 is describing anything close to our christmas tree of today-this was written back in the late 500's BC

 

No.  It is describing the process of carving an Idol from wood, plating it in silver and/or gold and adorning it with jewelry and regal garments.  That is what pagans did with their idols. 

 

There are NO indications of Christmas trees in the middle east.   You need to learn about the pagan cultures and how they worshipped their gods.  You will find that all these claims about our Christmas traditions going back to the babylonians to be false.  People read something in someone's book and they just believe it.   Most of our Christmas traditions came out of Europe during the Reformation period.

 

Jer 10:1-4 -is a warning from God not to follow the practices of heathens.-the example referred to is in verse 3,4

a tree is cut here and decorated or deck and secured-no carving mentioned .

It doesn't have to. The word for "tree" and "wood" are the same word in Hebrew.  Idols were made from wood and carved into the shape of a given god.  Trees were not worshipped in the ancient near east.  You evidently don't understand the culture of idolatry of the ancient near east.  

 

It is not talking about the custom of decorating a tree.  You are violating historical propriety.  You are taking a modern custom and penciling it into the Bible.   Your history is slopply and incompetent.   No one who knows anything about history will teach that people in the ancient near east teaches that they worship trees in that part of the world.

The evergreen tree and boughs were the most common

In the OT they were tempted to follow that particular tradition but God forbids it.

 

Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about.  You are just parroting what you read in someone's book and you obviously didn't fact check what you read.  These false teachers bank on people like you who will believe them with checking to see if their claims are true.  You are so gullible and you are wrong.

 

 

Where do you think the people of Europe derived their traditions from regarding this subject matter? And would they not be man-made?

 

They didin't get it from the ancient near east because modern Christmas traditions didn't come from that part of the world.  

 

 

The OT and the NT condemns laying aside God's ways He wants to be worshiped in favor of keeping our own idea of how we want to honor Him.

 

God's festivals in the OT were for Israel, not for the world.  God's dietary commandments were for Israel, not the world. 

 

Why the warning from God then if this is not a pagan practice?

 

it doesn't say anything about the Christmas tree.  It is talking about people who cut down trees and make idols out of them.  They shape the idol into their god and then overlay it with gold and silver.  You are trying to read "Christmas tree" into that passage.   The pagans in that part of the world didn't worship trees.  They worshipped idols they carved from those trees.

 

The Hebrew word  ets  is used which means tree.

 

It is also the word for wood.

Dec 25th goes back to the days of Nimrod and Tammuz-Dec25 is associated with most sun gods.

Dec 25 was regarded as the birthday of the mystery God Mithra, the son of righteousness

 

According to a lot of junk historians and conspiracy theorists.   They also say that the death burial and resurrection of Jesus are just rehashing the stories of Mithra and Horus and other gods as well.  They are wrong about that, too.

 

 

The modern xmas tree originated in Germany but they got it from the Romans who got it from the Babylonians and Egypt-would that be close enough to the Near east, throw in India as well.

 

Baloney.  No basis in reality.

 

 

 

Babylonian and Egyptian tree worship is a pagan tradition.

 

More baseless garbage that as no root in real history or real mythology.   You'll just believe anything, won't you.  I've got some ocean property in Kansas I'll sell you dirt cheap.

 

 

I didn't see your answer where you think the modern xmas tree came from? could you supply that?

 

It came from post reformation Europe, many historians agree that it started in Europe. 

 

Encyclopedias -like Britannica and others use accredited historians and many contributors that are professors of modern and ancient history at renowned universities.

Your sarcasm seems to be the only defense you are left with. What documented historical sources are you relying on? Because there are a lot of resources that beg to differ

with your objections to the truth. If you don't believe antiquities at least believe God.

If you are a Christian and follow the One who said  " I am the light of the world " why would you believe the perpetuation of strange customs not from the Bible but from the dark, dim mists of mythology which is primarily driven by satan?

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

 

Would you say  Jeremiah 10: 1-4 is describing anything close to our christmas tree of today-this was written back in the late 500's BC

 

No.  It is describing the process of carving an Idol from wood, plating it in silver and/or gold and adorning it with jewelry and regal garments.  That is what pagans did with their idols. 

 

There are NO indications of Christmas trees in the middle east.   You need to learn about the pagan cultures and how they worshipped their gods.  You will find that all these claims about our Christmas traditions going back to the babylonians to be false.  People read something in someone's book and they just believe it.   Most of our Christmas traditions came out of Europe during the Reformation period.

 

Jer 10:1-4 -is a warning from God not to follow the practices of heathens.-the example referred to is in verse 3,4

a tree is cut here and decorated or deck and secured-no carving mentioned .

It doesn't have to. The word for "tree" and "wood" are the same word in Hebrew.  Idols were made from wood and carved into the shape of a given god.  Trees were not worshipped in the ancient near east.  You evidently don't understand the culture of idolatry of the ancient near east.  

 

It is not talking about the custom of decorating a tree.  You are violating historical propriety.  You are taking a modern custom and penciling it into the Bible.   Your history is slopply and incompetent.   No one who knows anything about history will teach that people in the ancient near east teaches that they worship trees in that part of the world.

The evergreen tree and boughs were the most common

In the OT they were tempted to follow that particular tradition but God forbids it.

 

Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about.  You are just parroting what you read in someone's book and you obviously didn't fact check what you read.  These false teachers bank on people like you who will believe them with checking to see if their claims are true.  You are so gullible and you are wrong.

 

 

Where do you think the people of Europe derived their traditions from regarding this subject matter? And would they not be man-made?

 

They didin't get it from the ancient near east because modern Christmas traditions didn't come from that part of the world.  

 

 

The OT and the NT condemns laying aside God's ways He wants to be worshiped in favor of keeping our own idea of how we want to honor Him.

 

God's festivals in the OT were for Israel, not for the world.  God's dietary commandments were for Israel, not the world. 

 

Why the warning from God then if this is not a pagan practice?

The Hebrew word  ets  is used which means tree.

Dec 25th goes back to the days of Nimrod and Tammuz-Dec25 is associated with most sun gods.

Dec 25 was regarded as the birthday of the mystery God Mithra, the son of righteousness

The modern xmas tree originated in Germany but they got it from the Romans who got it from the Babylonians and Egypt-would that be close enough to the Near east, throw in India as well.

Babylonian and Egyptian tree worship is a pagan tradition.

I didn't see your answer where you think the modern xmas tree came from? could you supply that?

 

 

There is no warning from God that Christmas is a pagan practice. Some like to use Jeremiah 10, but it does not apply. 

 

Jeremiah 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

 

The work of the workman, is speaking about an artist, who is carving the tree. It is forbidding the Asherah pole. An Asherah pole is a tree, stripped of branches and the trunk is carved into the form of Astarte. Nothing can be clearer that a Christmas tree is not stripped of branches and carved into a figurine. A Christmas tree has absolutely nothing to do with Asherah poles. And if the use of a tree for decoration is forbidden, the the customary Succah, (booth), which is often decorated with various fruit, and tree branches would be in question also.  

 

Yes, ets means tree, it is not forbidden to cut down a tree. It is even not forbidden to strip branches from a tree. It is not forbidden to decorate a tree. It is forbidden to carve a tree into a figurine of a pagan god. 

 

Actually, Dec 25th is not necessarily the 'birthday of Mithra', as that is historically disputed. However, there was a very wide variety of pagan religions (those who worshipped false gods). Due to the large number of pagan beliefs, and some research into the holidays they celebrated, just about every single day of the calendar is a pagan holiday of some religion dedicated to a false god. Scripture does not forbid celebrating the real God on the same day that some pagan is celebrating their false god. As believers in Jesus, we are to celebrate and worship all days of the year, and agreed upon special days of gathering for worship, or worship in the home with family, are absolutely biblical. There is nothing wrong with worshipping on Dec 25th, but forbidding worship on Dec 25th because it coincides with an old pagan holiday is unbiblical.   

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe in the eyes of God,there is only one church,that is church of Jesus Christ,i may be right or wrong,iam open to correction,A preacher said that because of church doctrine and tradition of men,many christian will go to hell fire,do you guys agree with him,some christian doesn't celebrate christmas,they said Jesus was not born on 25th, and beside it is not biblical,and Christ did not ask us to celebrate His birth,I want to ask is it a must that every christian must celebrate christmas,is celebrating christmas biblical or tradition of men.some church said that it is not good for a christian to drink alcohol,why some encourage it,because the first miracle Jesus perform on earth,was turning water to wine.what do you think.

Hi Jerry,

 

I don't celebrate Christmas because it's not a Christian holiday. The Church swallowed up the pagan holiday of the Saturnalia. There were pagan celebrations that centered around Dec. 25 and the winter solstice the shortest day of the year. They saw this as a renewing as the days began to get longer. As more and more pagans turned to Christianity the church incorporated their holiday. Also, Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25. I believe He was born on Sept 12 3BC. 

 

The reason I don't celebrate Christmas is twofold, one, it's not from Scripture, and two In Deuteronomy God specifically told the Jews that they were not to worship Him the way the pagans worshiped their gods.  If you look at Christmas and the celebrations they are they way the pagans worshiped their gods. The pagans used trees, wreaths, lights, etc and all of these are found in Christmas celebrations.

 

Actually there is no archeological evidence of ancients employing modern Christmas traditions.  A lot of that is made up history revisionism.   Most modern Christmas traditions sprung up after the Reformation in Europe, not in ancient times. 

 

It's really no different than those who claim that the story of Jesus' life is actually a retelling of the story of the birth, life and death/resurrection of Horus or some other pagan god.  I have found a lot of really revisionist history and outright lies in people's attempts to tag Christianity as a pagan religion.

 

Before xmas was the Roman saturnalia 200 AD circa and before that was something earlier and so on.

Most of our xmas customs evolved from ancient pagan practices.-

even the prophets warned the jews to avoid  the Babylonian practices where a lot of our current customs evolved. Jer; 3;13,  circa 500-600 BC

 

that is complete nonsense.   Most of Christmas tradition orginated in Christian Europe, not in Babylon.

 

You need to look a little deeper. santa clause/jolly old nick some of those things evolved during Christian Europe but the Dec 25 birthday is about as pagan as you can get.

There are multitudes of history books and encyclopedias that explore the ancient past of xmas customs.

Tree decorating, exchanging gifts, caroling, ornaments, virgin birth, nativity scene, etc.are pagan practices going back thousands of years back before Christ.

take a look at Hislops " The Two Babylons " or the encyclopedia of religion and ethics.There are too many resources to mention.

Christmas contradicts biblical facts.

Xmas is rooted in ancient customs and religious practices that has nothing to do with Christianity and the Bible.

 

Easter, which is approaching soon, is another example of traditions that are not of Christian origin

 

Rather than follow ancient or modern mythological practices God shows us a better way of life with His sacred Holy feast days.

 

The choices you make will affect your destiny.

 

 

Are you really making the celebration of Christmas and Easter a salvation issue? Do you really believe those who celebrate Dec. 25th as Jesus birthday are risking their salvation?

 

Christmas is on Dec 25th. Saturnalia began on Dec. 17th. The winter solstice is on Dec. 21st. None of these dates match.  

A pagan practice involves the worship of pagan gods. Jesus is not a pagan god.

 

As far as the OT Holy days, those were given to the children of Israel as a sign between them and God. Not Gentiles. And not the Church. Neither Christmas nor Easter are pagan. And we are under the New Covenant, not the Mosaic covenant.

 

You read too much really bad information which is usually written with an agenda to justify bad theology. I would suggest reading some genuine Messianic Judaism sites to get the real information.  The UMJC has many papers written on these topics.    

 

So much to say and so little time.

i;m not trying to make an issue here-that's your department.

If we have prolific proof available as we do with the origins of christmas including even the catholic encyclopedias that xmas is ripe in pagan philosophy and we ignore it

so as not to upset our comfortable way of celebrating than we could be at risk of sinning willfully.

Christ was not born in the winter on or near December 25-there's Biblical proof.

When it comes to the children of Israel we find that they were made up of 12 tribes-the tribe of Judah (Jews) being only one of them.

The Israelites consisted of gentiles as well during the exodus.

When God made His covenant with the children of Israel and their descendants it included all 12 tribes.

Is it possible that some of us are part of the latter day Israelites?

Paul brought the church and its teachings and observances of God's feast days to the gentiles.

There is no mention of christmas celebrations in the New Testament.

You won't even find a religious service or feast day held to commerorate Jesus birth in the NT.

December 25th has a very dark and checkered past.

Saturnalia began on the 17th but ran for 7 days to the 24 - our christmas eve,

Dec 25 was the original celebrated winter solstice. It was changed later in history to the 21st.

businesses were closed, parties were held, gifts exchanged-sound familiar?

It is a fact that Dec 25 was the birthday for many ancient sun gods part of the winter solstice celebrations.

During the time of the Apostles and the NT church Romans celebrated the feast of the saturnalia  while the church kept the " feasts of the Lord "

The Christian history books over the centuries showed an animosity to xmas because of their relationship to sun worshiping.

Xmas was banned at one time in England and in New England.

 

But another popular religious holiday, Easter has an even more deceptive past.

Check out its origins. We all have the tools in our world of technology.

 

 

A lot of bad information in your post. Actually too much of it is off topic for this thread so I will not respond so as not to disrupt.  But, I will say to you that based on what you wrote, I would strongly suggest looking into some Messianic Judaism teachers, (not those connected to Two House or One law).   

[Guest shiloh357]

Encyclopedias -like Britannica and others use accredited historians and many contributors that are professors of modern and ancient history at renowned universities.

 

Here is what the Encyclopedia Brittanica says about the origin of the Christmas tree:

 

The modern Christmas tree, though, originated in western Germany. The main prop of a popular medieval play about Adam and Eve was a “paradise tree,” a fir tree hung with apples, that represented the Garden of Eden. The Germans set up a paradise tree in their homes on December 24, the religious feast day of Adam and Eve. They hung wafers on it (symbolizing the host, the Christian sign of redemption); in a later tradition the wafers were replaced by cookies of various shapes. Candles, symbolic of Christ, were often added. In the same room was the “Christmas pyramid,” a triangular construction of wood that had shelves to hold Christmas figurines and was decorated with evergreens, candles, and a star. By the 16th century the Christmas pyramid and the paradise tree had merged, becoming the Christmas tree.

 

The custom was widespread among the German Lutherans by the 18th century, but it was not until the following century that the Christmas tree became a deep-rooted German tradition. Introduced into England in the early 19th century, the Christmas tree was popularized in the mid-19th century by the German Prince Albert, husband of Queen Victoria. The Victorian tree was decorated with toys and small gifts, candles, candies, and fancy cakes hung from the branches by ribbon and by paper chains. Taken to North America by German settlers as early as the 17th century, Christmas trees were the height of fashion by the 19th century. They were also popular in Austria, Switzerland, Poland, and the Netherlands. In China and Japan, Christmas trees, introduced by Western missionaries in the 19th and 20th centuries, were decorated with intricate paper designs.

 

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/115737/Christmas-tree

 

There were ancient customs where branches of evergreens were used to symbolize eternal life in pagan cultures including pagan Europe.  However the Christmas tree has no link to those customs.  You are making a false connection between an ancient practice that had nothing to do with Christmas.  Just because the ancients used a tree to ward off demons or whatever doesn't mean the Christmas tree originated from the those practices.

 

It is as ridiculous as claiming that the American flag is of French origin because it uses the same Red, White and Blue colors.

[fruitfull77]

Most of this discussion, to use the term loosely, is focused about Christmas, December 25th, being the time we should be celebrating the birth of Christ.

but looking into it further we can see that it was not even close.

Clement picked November 18.

If we use bible scripture instead of historians who seem to have no credibility, let's consider the following:

 

An analysis of scripture  shows that Dec 25 is the most unlikely date,

First we know shepherds were in the fields watching their flocks at the time of Jesus birth- Luke 2:7-8

Shepherds would not be in the fields during December.

December is usually cold and rainy (possible snow even)

It would be more likely shepherds would have shelters for their flocks at night. There are many sources for this view which makes more sense that the weather would not have  permitted shepherds watching over their flocks in the fields at night.

 

Next we could look at the fact that Jesus's parents came to Bethlehem to register in a Roman census- Luke 2:1-4.

It is highly unlikely that such a general census would be taken in the winter.when temperatures often dropped below freezing and roads would be in poor shape.

Taking a census under such conditions would have been self-defeating especially those with child and the elderly.

 

The Bible points to late September as the most likely time of Jesus' birth based on the conception and birth of John the Baptist.

Since Elizabeth -John's mother-was in her sixth month of pregnancy when Jesus was conceived -Luke 1:24-26 we can determine the approximate time of year Jesus was born.

It was learned that Elizabeth would have a child-John's conception would have been  near the end of June of that year-The companion Bible calculated the conception time from the Abijah service at the temple by Zacharias -Luke 1:5  after learning John's birth would be sometime in late  March of the following year.we add another six months after John's birth (the difference in ages between john and Jesus) brings us to the end of September as the likely time of Jesus' birth.

 

Aren't we lucky- we can now take Jesus out of the christmas December 25 scene. 

we can leave that date with pagans where it belongs.

 

what do you think about them apples?

[Atwood]

Hi there; you do have a list of questions. You say, "I believe in the eyes of God,there is only one church,that is church of Jesus Christ," Yes, there is one Body of Christ. As to going to Hell Fire, the only reason why men go there is that they are sinners. The wages of sin is death. The Lake of Fire is the 2nd death. You ask about Christmas celebrations. There is nothing advocating that in the Bible -- nor forbidding it. No scripture said that Mary of Bethany should put nard on the Lord's head. Judas objected. I find no prohibition in the Bible against drinking a little wine for the stomach's sake & the oft infirmity; indeed Paul gave Timothy that order. Drunkenness is another matter. The point is that Christianity is about loving God & neighbor, rather than concentrating on minor points.

[His_disciple3]

Fruitfull, the Bible clearly states that if we break one law we have broken them ALL. If we keep one law we have to keep them ALL. let's look at some other laws. the law of the Sabbath, original stated that no one was to leave their place on the Sabbath, their place being interpreted as their Home. this was then decided that place meant their city and not their home, so that people could go to the temple on the Sabbath, so the priest added a distance( 2000 cubits)  that could be traveled on the Sabbath, Then one Priest said well if they can travel 2000 cubits to go to the temple then they may need another 2000 cubits to make it back home. ( 4000 cubits total) then on toward the new testament and cities growing larger. they added another 4000 cubits to make a Sabbath days journey 8000 cubits. now 6000 cubits is a little over a mile, so a Sabbath days journey would be over 1 and a 1/3 of a mile .now that was the last time the law was changed . so if you travel over that distance on the Sabbath to go to your temple/church, then you should not cast stones at people with Christmas trees, for you to have broken the law.

 

now one more, assuming the church you attends preaches against Christmas trees, does the Pastor or leader of said church, shave the beard or head? for that too would defile a priest before God so I can see a well shaven preacher at your church preaching not to put up a Christmas tree, being well shaven or clean shaven would be a sin for a priest/ leader of a flock. in the eyes of God. note also here a woman couldn't be the leader unless they had a beard that is!!!!

Lev 21:4-5

4 But he shall not defile himself, being a chief man among his people, to profane himself.

5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.

KJV

the law was not given as bondage but to teach( as a schoolmaster) that All stand in the need of the mercy and Grace of God!

[Guest shiloh357]

Most of this discussion, to use the term loosely, is focused about Christmas, December 25th, being the time we should be celebrating the birth of Christ.

but looking into it further we can see that it was not even close.

Clement picked November 18.

If we use bible scripture instead of historians who seem to have no credibility, let's consider the following:

 

But just yesterday, you told me that your postion was based on historians and professors and you cited the Encyclopedia Brittanica.   Suddenly, historians now have no credibility??   You cite "historians" that agree with your position, don't you?

 

An analysis of scripture  shows that Dec 25 is the most unlikely date,

First we know shepherds were in the fields watching their flocks at the time of Jesus birth- Luke 2:7-8

Shepherds would not be in the fields during December.

December is usually cold and rainy (possible snow even)

It would be more likely shepherds would have shelters for their flocks at night. There are many sources for this view which makes more sense that the weather would not have  permitted shepherds watching over their flocks in the fields at night.

 

Next we could look at the fact that Jesus's parents came to Bethlehem to register in a Roman census- Luke 2:1-4.

It is highly unlikely that such a general census would be taken in the winter.when temperatures often dropped below freezing and roads would be in poor shape.

Taking a census under such conditions would have been self-defeating especially those with child and the elderly.

 

The Bible points to late September as the most likely time of Jesus' birth based on the conception and birth of John the Baptist.

Since Elizabeth -John's mother-was in her sixth month of pregnancy when Jesus was conceived -Luke 1:24-26 we can determine the approximate time of year Jesus was born.

It was learned that Elizabeth would have a child-John's conception would have been  near the end of June of that year-The companion Bible calculated the conception time from the Abijah service at the temple by Zacharias -Luke 1:5  after learning John's birth would be sometime in late  March of the following year.we add another six months after John's birth (the difference in ages between john and Jesus) brings us to the end of September as the likely time of Jesus' birth.

 

Aren't we lucky- we can now take Jesus out of the christmas December 25 scene. 

we can leave that date with pagans where it belongs.

 

what do you think about them apples?

 

Yeah, that's old news. It doesn't matter when He was born.  

[Qnts2]

Most of this discussion, to use the term loosely, is focused about Christmas, December 25th, being the time we should be celebrating the birth of Christ.

but looking into it further we can see that it was not even close.

Clement picked November 18.

If we use bible scripture instead of historians who seem to have no credibility, let's consider the following:

 

An analysis of scripture  shows that Dec 25 is the most unlikely date,

First we know shepherds were in the fields watching their flocks at the time of Jesus birth- Luke 2:7-8

Shepherds would not be in the fields during December.

December is usually cold and rainy (possible snow even)

It would be more likely shepherds would have shelters for their flocks at night. There are many sources for this view which makes more sense that the weather would not have  permitted shepherds watching over their flocks in the fields at night.

 

Next we could look at the fact that Jesus's parents came to Bethlehem to register in a Roman census- Luke 2:1-4.

It is highly unlikely that such a general census would be taken in the winter.when temperatures often dropped below freezing and roads would be in poor shape.

Taking a census under such conditions would have been self-defeating especially those with child and the elderly.

 

The Bible points to late September as the most likely time of Jesus' birth based on the conception and birth of John the Baptist.

Since Elizabeth -John's mother-was in her sixth month of pregnancy when Jesus was conceived -Luke 1:24-26 we can determine the approximate time of year Jesus was born.

It was learned that Elizabeth would have a child-John's conception would have been  near the end of June of that year-The companion Bible calculated the conception time from the Abijah service at the temple by Zacharias -Luke 1:5  after learning John's birth would be sometime in late  March of the following year.we add another six months after John's birth (the difference in ages between john and Jesus) brings us to the end of September as the likely time of Jesus' birth.

 

Aren't we lucky- we can now take Jesus out of the christmas December 25 scene. 

we can leave that date with pagans where it belongs.

 

what do you think about them apples?

 

The bible does not point to late September for Jesus birth. That is an error which has been propogated by certain teachers who apparently have a vested interest in a fall birth. Basing Jesus birth on the timing of the course of Abijah is a nice attempt, but the full understanding of these courses does not lead to that conclusion.

 

The Priests were divided into 24 groups, and each group served one week at a time. Abijah is the 8th group. Since there are 24 groups, obviously they must serve twice a year. Those who try to state with certainty ignore the twice a year service. Also the Hebrew calendar does not match the modern calendar. The Hebrew year starts on the first day of the month of Nissan. That is approximately March-April. Eight weeks later would be the end of the month of Iyyar which is approximately  April-May. Of course this fluctuates based on whether there is a leap month. (The calendar adjusts for drift, not with a leap day but with a leap month). Plus, for High Holidays, there is no separate course, but rather more priests are needed so some of all differing courses serve in the Temple. This March-April timing is what is set forth by those who wish Jesus was born in September, (and by now it should be understood that the fluctuations of the Hebrew calendar do not allow for anyone to claim September).

 

That second course in a year for Abiyah is in the fall in the month of Marheshvan which can be from  October to November. Ok, let's do this calculation. If Elizabeth became pregnant at the end of October, or beginning of November, that would put the birth of John sometime around June or July. Add 6 months to June, and you have around the December timeframe. Oh my!!!!! The reality is, we can not know the exact time of Jesus birth based on the courses of the priesthood, as there are too many variables, but one this is sure, the courses do not eliminate December. They do not confirm December, but for those trying to prove otherwise, they do not eliminate December.

 

I have written on the weather in the area of Bethlehem before. Many people assume for some reason that the sheep would not be out grazing in December, but they try to make an assumption which is not based on the actual weather in the Bethlehem area. Bethlehem is more of a mild meditaranean climate in temperature but is also in the desert. That means in December, the temperatures average around 50 or 60 degrees.

 

http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=12

 

Throughout the month of December daytime temperatures will generally reach highs of around 14°C that's about 58°F. At night the average minimum temperature drops down to around 7°C, that's 44°F.

In recent times the highest recorded temperature in December has been 29°C that's 83°F, with the lowest recorded temperature -1°C, about 30°F.

 

So, we can say that Bethlehem is not so cold that the shepherds would not be out grazing the sheep. The other factor is that the Bethlehem area is arrid, desert like. There is only grass on the hills after rainy seasons. The rest of the time, the plants would be brown and not growing. For sheep to be grazing, it must be right after the rainy season and not after an extended dry time.

 

From the previous site for December:

 

Precipitation

The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 71 mm, that's 3 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 11 days of the month, with snow falling on 1 days.

  

Now let's look at the rain around Bethlehem in September:

 

http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=9

 

Precipitation

The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 0 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month.

       

How about August:

 

http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=8

 

Precipitation

The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 0 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month.

 

One more month back to find rain to have grass to graze on in September so here is July in Bethlehem:

 

http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=7

 

Precipitation

The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 10 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month.

 

So, we can conclude that the shepherds would definitely NOT be out with the sheep in August, September or October, as there is nothing to graze on. The rainy season starts around November and ends around the April. In December, in the hills around Bethlehem, everything is in full bloom. From May - October, there is no rain, or only trace amounts (0 to less then an inch per month) so everything is dryed out and brown.