Did God Create Lucifer Evil?

[OneLight]

This debate is between Butero, who is defending the statement "God created everything, including evil, and Satan is being what God designed him to be.", while enoob57 will debate against the statement.  This debate is not open to the public to respond to. 

The ground rules have been agreed upon, which are:

• Only scripture is to be used as reference material.
• The topic needs to remain on the subject matter only, no sidetracking.
• The ToS has to be followed at all times.

Gentlemen, the debate is open.  Please present your opening arguments.

 

God Bless,

Alan

[enoob57]

As my Brother in Christ has given me first to begin I would like to do so in a public Prayer!

Father we clear our hearts and minds to Your Glory only as we are dressed

in Your Son's Life so also raise Your Word to the precise purpose in which

it is written in this discourse and may unity of understanding be its fruit!

In Jesus Holy Name amen.

I would like to thank all Mods in their added effort in this!

Now down to it...

I would like to examine the issue of evil and it's origin found in Scripture:

Ezek 28:14-15

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:

thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down

in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways

from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

KJV

Now clearly God 'IS' The Examiner in this statement and giving Witness of His

design and purpose

which was reflecting the Glory of God's brilliant Light of Being from the jewels of

Lucifer's design and timbrels and pipes of music devine

Ezek 28:13

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;

Every precious stone was your covering:

The sardius, topaz, and diamond,

Beryl, onyx, and jasper,

Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.

The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes

Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

NKJV

but more importantly we find God proclaiming iniquity found in Him at a certain point

past his created purpose by his own resource

by position-

Ezek 28:16

16 "By the abundance of your trading

You became filled with violence within,

And you sinned;

Therefore I cast you as a profane thing

Out of the mountain of God;

And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,

From the midst of the fiery stones.

NKJV

By reordered purpose-

Ezek 28:17

17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;

You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;

I cast you to the ground,

I laid you before kings,

That they might gaze at you.

NKJV

Isa 14:12-15

"How you are fallen from heaven,

O Lucifer, son of the morning!

How you are cut down to the ground,

You who weakened the nations!

13 For you have said in your heart:

'I will ascend into heaven,

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation

On the farthest sides of the north;

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,

I will be like the Most High.'

15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,

To the lowest depths of the Pit.

NKJV

God's judgment of him is that of internal disorder of design and God gives

him the title of father of lie

John 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father

ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not

in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh

a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father

of it.

KJV

This finds moral evil as satan the father of!

[Guest Butero]

I am going to be out of town for a few days, so I am not sure how quickly I will be able to give responses to future posts, but since I now have access to the forum, I want to go ahead and give an opening argument so Enoob can give his next post. 

 

My position is that God is all knowing.  He does not know 99 percent of the time what is going to happen, but he knows everything.  He knows everything that is in the past, present and future.  Nothing is hidden from God.  God created all things.  No other creature has the ability to create from nothing.  Mankind can take things God already made and build things with them, but the material already existed because God created it.  We have no ability to make anything out of thin air. 

 

The question in this debate involves one of how much God knows about his creation, and how much control he has over his creation.  More specifically, how much did God know about Lucifer when he made him, and how much control does God have over Lucifer?  There are people that disagree over whether or not the scriptures in question that Enoob posted actually pertain to Lucifer.  For the record, I am in agreement with Enoob that while they are dealing with earthly kings, they also are speaking of Lucifer.  Sometimes prophecy scriptures have two meanings, the obvious one, and the hidden one.  Based on these scriptures, it is fair to conclude that when Lucifer was first created, he served as an angel in God's Kingdom and led in worship of God.  To this point, I think Enoob and I agree?  The question is over whether or not God created Lucifer to be an adversary in the long run.  The question is whether or not God could see down the road when he made Lucifer and know that Lucifer would turn on him?  The question is whether or not iniquity was part of Lucifer from the beginning, and was in a dormant stage, only to come out down the road, or whether or not iniquity suddenly appeared in Lucifer out of the blue down the road on its own?  The question is whether or not God was taken by surprise when Lucifer betrayed him along with 1/3 of the angels?  I don't believe any of this caught God by surprise, and I believe it was God's will all along that these things happen.  I believe that God created Lucifer to be an adversary from the beginning, and that iniquity was given him as part of his character, but it remained hidden until the appointed time, much like Judas Iscariot appeared to be a loyal disciple until the time came for him to betray Jesus. 

 

I can't deny and won't deny that the scriptures are plain in teaching that Lucifer was originally created as an angel and that he led in worship of God.  The Bible states that.  What I don't agree with is that God made a mistake in creating Lucifer.  What I don't accept is that God screwed up, and somehow made angels with defects, and those mistakes took him by surprise down the road, like an inventor trying to create a product, and making mistakes along the way.  Some worked as designed and others did not.  That is what Enoob is asking us to believe.  If I take his position, I am saying that God messed up.  I am saying that God was taken aback by Lucifer's rebellion.  I am saying that God's knowledge is limited.  I don't believe that.  I don't believe God is capable of making mistakes.  I don't believe God is capable of faulty designs.  I don't believe anything anyone does takes God by surprise.  I believe God is bigger than that.  It is my position that God did design Lucifer to be an angel of worship for an appointed time, but he knew that down the road, Lucifer would lead a rebellion, and this was God's plan all along.  I believe that God created an adversary to show his creation a contrast between God's ways which are righteous and holy, and the alternative.  The only way that could be done is by creating an adversary, and that adversary is Lucifer, who is now known as Satan. 

 

I look forward to a spirited debate with Enoob, and I will give as timely a response as possible, given my work schedule this week. 

[enoob57]

Ezek 28:11-15

11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 12 "Son of man, take up a

lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord God:

"You were the seal of perfection,

Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;

Every precious stone was your covering:

The sardius, topaz, and diamond,

Beryl, onyx, and jasper,

Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.

The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes

Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers;

I established you;

You were on the holy mountain of God;

You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,

NKJV

There is to this point agreement as this is both earthly King of Tyre and Lucifer...

side note of why:

God speaks of satan through Ezekiel in referencing King of Tyre is understood by God's defining of what

man actually is in design Rom 9 man is a vessel to be filled...

life originated with being filled With God's Breath (Spirit); when sinned God's Spirit left us and we were

filled with lies of satan; hence the King of Tyre was just like his father satan-> so God addresses the father

of lies instead of the vessel containing those attributes. Also shadowed in Jesus' condemnation Jn 8:44 .

I believe that God created Lucifer to be an adversary from the beginning, and that iniquity was

given him as part of his character, but it remained hidden until the appointed time,

Because this is a Character of God issue by giving intent to outcome and putting evil as a purpose that

God in His Holiness desired~ one must stop and re-evaluate as this is born out of the yen - yang philosophy.

According to God before He began to create other beings there was only Him (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

Isa 45:21-23

21 Tell and bring forth your case;

Yes, let them take counsel together.

Who has declared this from ancient time?

Who has told it from that time?

Have not I, the Lord?

And there is no other God besides Me,

A just God and a Savior;

There is none besides Me.

22 "Look to Me, and be saved,

All you ends of the earth!

For I am God, and there is no other.

23 I have sworn by Myself;

The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,

And shall not return,

That to Me every knee shall bow,

Every tongue shall take an oath.

NKJV

.

Now in this statement of God alone resides the eternal past and we dare not place boundary into eternity or

else we have what 'IS' as what is not… this is what satan has done in his work of confusion called sin! If we

understand that 'IS' and 'is not' is the premise of all things in the evaluations >simply truth or lie<, >light or

darkness<, >right or wrong<, >God or not god< we begin to form the foundational aspect of all thought and

reason that God has began us in ***NO*** absolutely beyond all rational thought ***NO***! God began us in

innocents with choice as to which tree we chose to partake of...

Here lies the the bare bones issue what is evil and where did it come from. God has squarely put it upon Lucifer the

covering Cherub…

Ezek 28:15

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

KJV

My opponent in the thought of this debate would like you to believe this iniquity found was placed there

by God Who Says this about Himself

James 1:17

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom

is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

KJV

To embrace this thought Butero proposes one must also then believe evil is good.

I challenge him to produce one place anywhere and in anyway this is supported within Scripture!

Love, Steven

Edited March 26, 2014 by enoob57

[Guest Butero]

Much of what Enoob said, at least about the scriptures referring to Lucifer, I agree with.  They are speaking of the king of Tyre, but they are also speaking of Lucifer.  Enoob asks the question, "Where did evil come from?"  He says it came from Lucifer.  I would hope that one thing both of us could agree on is that Lucifer is evil.  My point is that since God created Lucifer, God created evil.  Lucifer came from somewhere.  He isn't a product of the big bang.  That means that God had to create him.  We see a progression within Lucifer, where he goes from apparently being a good angel leading in worship of the creator, to becoming the evil being Satan.  The Bible says that at a particular point in time, iniquity was found in him.  This is where Enoob and I part ways.  I don't believe that iniquity came out of thin air.  I believe that it is a creation.  It was part of what God created Lucifer to be.  The only other possible way to look at it would be to say God created a defective angel, had no idea he would turn on him, and iniquity came out of nowhere.  We would have to believe that Lucifer somehow created evil out of thin air.  I don't believe that is possible, and I don't believe that God would mess up like that.  Enoob brings up a scripture from James, one of my favorites. 

 

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 

 

Enoob says that I must "believe evil is good" based on that lone scripture.  I don't have to believe any such thing.  Of course every good thing that exists comes from God, but that doesn't mean he was incapable or didn't create anything evil.  As a matter of fact, God did create things imperfect and even evil, and it wasn't by mistake.  Notice what it says in Romans 9:14-22

 

14  What shall we say then?  Is there unrighteousness with God?  God forbid.

15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17  For the scripture saith unto Pharoah, even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth,

18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19  thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault?  For who hath resisted his will?

20  Nay, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?  Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21  Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor?

22  What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

24  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

Note that when it comes to the human creation, God states he formed us.  We didn't just appear, but we were formed by God, the master potter.  Notice that he says he intentionally formed some vessels of honour and some of dishonor.  It stands to reason that something created to be of dishonor isn't a good and perfect gift.  That certainly was the case with Pharoah, but even evil people have a purpose.  Pharoah was formed and raised up so God could show his power. 

 

Now lets look at Lucifer in light of this passage.  Is there anyone that would argue that God formed Lucifer?  Would anyone argue against the notion he is a creation of God?  How about the other angels?  How about the 1/3 of the angels that rebelled with Lucifer?  Were they created by God?  Of course they were.  Just as God formed some human vessels to dishonor and some to honour, God created a multitude of angels.  We don't know how many there are, but we know 2/3 remain loyal to God and 1/3 hate God.  God also created Lucifer.  Just as God created some human vessels to dishonor, and in Pharoah's case, to show his power, God created Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels to be an adversary, and so the entire creation can see a distinction in righteousness and holiness as opposed to lawlessness and evil.  In the end, just as Pharoah was used to show God's power, Lucifer will be used in similar fashion, first when he is thrown in the pit, and again when he leads a final rebellion at the end of the millennial reign and is destroyed once and for all.  The scripture you used doesn't require I show "evil is good."  God is good, and every good and perfect gift is from God, but he also at times creates things that are not good and perfect for his purposes. 

 

 

 

[enoob57]

I don't believe that iniquity came out of thin air.  I believe that it is a creation. It was part of what God created Lucifer to be.

Basic foundational number one Biblical fact 'IS' God's complete and utter Holiness and is well documented within all Scripture:

James 3:12

12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine,

figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

KJV

The emphatic answer of all people saved and unsaved is 'NO' you cannot have salt water and

fresh water from the same source! This is so clear an necessary in understanding that God

has made it so in His Word in countless ways... both creative and in Written formats!

God's declaration of His Person:

Deut 32:4-5

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment:

a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. 5 They have

corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they

are a perverse and crooked generation.

KJV

God 'IS Truth' 'without iniquity' AND 'They corrupted themselves'

there is no way to change this to fit what you are saying...

Isa 6:1-3

6 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a

throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it

stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his

face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

               3 And one cried unto another, and said,

                  Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts:

                  the whole earth is full of his glory.  KJV

Just so you understand The Father 'IS' Perfectly Holy, The Son 'IS' perfectly Holy and The

Holy Spirit 'IS' perfectly Holy... and cannot have anything to do with the perversion of

truth that is called lie!

Rev 4:8

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they

were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying,

                   Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty,

                   which was, and is, and is to come.  KJV 

So just in case you think in eternity past- God answers 'which     'WAS'       Holy'

So just in case you think in the present - God answers 'which       'IS'        Holy'

So just in case you think in the future - God answers 'which  'IS to come'   Holy'

 

As you can clearly see God 'IS' Holy and 'IS' the same throughout eternity!

Heb 13:8

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever

KJV

The danger of where you are in what you believe in The Scriptures is greater than you realize! In that of source:

John 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will

do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth,

because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of

his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

KJV

Exegetically God 'IS' saying lie is sourced in satan alone and to say it is the created aspect of God's design of

satan is no difference then the inverse of the blaspheme of The Holy Spirit which took the working of God and gave

it to the devil... For you are taking the things of the devil and saying they are of God!

I cannot express the critical flaw and wrong spiritual nature of this enough...

 

As a matter of fact, God did create things imperfect and even evil, and it wasn't by mistake.  Notice what it says in Romans 9:14-22

 

14  What shall we say then?  Is there unrighteousness with God?  God forbid.

15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17  For the scripture saith unto Pharoah, even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth,

18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19  thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault?  For who hath resisted his will?

20  Nay, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?  Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21  Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor?

22  What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

24  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

Note that when it comes to the human creation, God states he formed us.  We didn't just appear, but we were formed by God, the master potter.  Notice that he says he intentionallyformed some vessels of honour and some of dishonor.  It stands to reason that something created to be of dishonor isn't a good and perfect gift.  That certainly was the case with Pharoah, but even evil people have a purpose.  Pharoah was formed and raised up so God could show his power.

To understand the fullness of Paul's reference here one must study Jer 18 & 19 ...

The proper setting of this Scripture is from a Holy Place God speaks toward defiled vessels 'all have sinned'

so this forming of vessels one to honor and another to dishonor cannot mean what you think for it is an outward

design of appearance as great and mighty men and weak and insignificant men- notice the rich have clay containers

of immense design to escalate the appearance of value yet of same clay of simple design only for the poor! As the

subject matter is only honor and dishonor. However the subject matter of vessels of wrath verses vessels of mercy

contend in a different manner as I have already discussed above is referencing the choice of rejecting all that we

began in and are filled with to that which is born again in us a clean vessel with God The Holy Spirit indwelling

as vessels of mercy... as you read the Jeremiah passage you will see the vessel formed for honorable

use being Israel yet they were filled with God's wrath by their choice of what they filled themselves with!

An important aspect of evil is that God fills all eternities with His aspects thus evil is framed in on itself; Because

it is not sourced in God but has began out of lie and not truth and thus God has removed it from the living and keeps

it among the dead.

Jer 18:11-13

11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants

of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you,

and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way,

and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope:

but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the

imagination of his evil heart. 13 Therefore thus saith the Lord; Ask ye now

among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath

done a very horrible thing.

KJV

That which was created for honorable use became vessels filled with God's wrath! God teaches this important reasoning-

Matt 7:1-2

7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and

with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

KJV

Why is this important is the structure in which we understand God's perfect Holiness and

our inability from out of own source to comply with

1 Peter 1:16

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

KJV

Clearly as we slip into sins & the cleaness of forgiveness is lost to our conscience present and in that loss of this very real aspect of

being (the grieving of God The Holy Spirit we repent-> to regain the reality as there is no other life but in His Cleaness of Life and His

singular right of Judge... Love, Steven

Edited March 29, 2014 by enoob57

[Guest Butero]

First of all, there is no question that God himself is holy and righteous.  That is all he will ever be.  That doesn't mean he is not capable of creating a being that is the opposite of everything he stands for to show us a contrast between good and evil.  As a matter of fact, God did just that.  It was God that created Lucifer.  Once again, lets look at what it would mean if you are correct and God didn't create Lucifer with iniquity on the inside of him, and if God didn't know all along what Lucifer would become.  It would mean God created a defective angel.  Since 1/3 of all the angels rebelled with Lucifer, it would mean God created 1/3 of the angels defective.  It would mean that God is not all knowing, because he was completely taken by surprise by what Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels did.  This is the same God that knows how many hairs are on each person's head.  You are concerned that my position somehow goes against the character of God, but I would contend that your position limits God's power.  The Bible states that with God, nothing shall be impossible, and you want us to believe that such a mighty God screwed up and created defective angels and didn't see what they were going to do.  I just cannot accept that. 

 

When God is speaking of the devil, and saying that the devil is the Father of a lie and the truth is not in him, he is speaking only of his created being, the devil.  God is not a liar, but Satan, whom God created is.  God created the devil to be the exact opposite of himself.  Everything God is, the devil is the exact opposite.  BTW, I am not buying into your blasphemy against the Holy Spirit nonsense. 

 

It is true that God was speaking of Israel and the gentiles, however, God was giving examples, and those examples were real.  God did create Pharoah, and raised him up to show his power.  That was a real man that God created to oppose Moses.  While we are at it, God also created Janis and Jambrees to oppose Moses.  God hardened Pharoah's heart so he wouldn't give in to the demands of Moses until God was done showing his power.  God hardened his heart again so he would go after Moses and have his army destroyed in the Red Sea.  God created Jacob and Esau to be the men they were and prophesied of their future before they were born.  One was a vessel of honor and one a vessel of dishonor.  No, they were not both created as vessels of honor but one went bad.  That's absurd.  God created Judas Iscariot knowing he would be the betrayer.  He was a vessel of dishonor.  No, he was not a vessel of honor gone bad.  God even told how he would betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver and later cast the money away and hang himself, and it was even foretold that the money would purchase the Potter's field.  There is no way that any of this was an accident.  God creates some vessels of honor and some of dishonor, which means he creates some people good and some evil.  He did the same thing with the angels.  He created 2/3 to be his loyal servants, and Lucifer and 1/3 to rebel. 

 

Again, lets examine this logically.  According to you, God thought he was creating a beautiful, wonderful and righteous angel when he made Lucifer.  He thought all the other angels were perfect and righteous.  He had no idea that one day down the road, Lucifer would lead a rebellion of 1/3 of the angels and they would turn on him.  He made defective angels.  On top of that, where did iniquity come from?  Remember that Lucifer was a creation of God.  Remember that all the angels are a creation of God.  That means that for better or worse, they were whatever God, the master potter fashioned them to be.  If God didn't place the iniquity in Lucifer when he made him, where did it come from?  While we are at it, it is my contention that God created evil.  That is not even hard to prove, considering that Lucifer is the Father of evil, and God created him.  To accept what you are saying, that would mean God makes mistakes.  It would mean God is not all powerful.  It would mean God doesn't know everything.  If God didn't know what Lucifer was going to do back then, how can he predict what he will do in the future?  We have all these prophetic words about the anti-Christ and about Satan leading an army against God, and how he will be bound for 1000 years.  How is it God can know all of that, but didn't know what Lucifer would do in the beginning?  It doesn't make any logical sense. 

 

On the one hand, if you accept my premise, God knows all things and makes no mistakes.  God created Lucifer knowing full well he would one day rebel against him and lead a rebellion among 1/3 of the angels.  It was God's plan all along.  On the other hand, if I accept your premise, God created defective angels.  He had no idea what they were going to do.  The God that sees a sparrow when it falls didn't see the rebellion coming.  He flat out messed up.  Iniquity sprung up in Lucifer out of nowhere.  God thought he made him good and perfect, but he was wrong.  Don't you see how weak that makes God look?  I understand that from your vantage point, you believe you are defending God's character, but in order to do so, you are making him look weak.  It comes down to an all powerful God who created everything that exists, and nothing took him by surprise.  He created good and evil, or God is imperfect and makes mistakes.  He is not all powerful, and doesn't know everything.  I choose to believe God is all powerful, and there is no way he could have made the kind of mistake it would have taken to create Lucifer, thinking he would remain good and loyal, only to have iniquity spring up in him and have him lead a rebellion. 

 

As I said, I am 100 percent convinced God knew exactly what Lucifer was going to become when he made him, simply because God is all knowing and all powerful.  At the same time, I do want to add this one disclaimer.  Job's friends all thought they knew all about God and his creation and his mighty works and were wrong in all of their conclusions.  Since neither of us were there when God actually created Lucifer, and we have not had the privilege to have a meeting with God face to face to get his exact account of the events that took place, there is a good chance that we could both be missing the mark in our conclusions.  Just something to think about. 

[enoob57]

First of all, there is no question that God himself is holy and righteous.  That is all he will ever be.  That doesn't mean he is not capable of creating a being that is the opposite of everything he stands for to show us a contrast between good and evil.  As a matter of fact, God did just that.  It was God that created Lucifer.  Once again, lets look at what it would mean if you are correct and God didn't create Lucifer with iniquity on the inside of him, and if God didn't know all along what Lucifer would become.  It would mean God created a defective angel.  Since 1/3 of all the angels rebelled with Lucifer, it would mean God created 1/3 of the angels defective.  It would mean that God is not all knowing, because he was completely taken by surprise by what Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels did.  This is the same God that knows how many hairs are on each person's head.  You are concerned that my position somehow goes against the character of God, but I would contend that your position limits God's power.  The Bible states that with God, nothing shall be impossible, and you want us to believe that such a mighty God screwed up and created defective angels and didn't see what they were going to do.  I just cannot accept that.

Butero bless your heart leave your mind out of this and receive The Mind of God in this!

He's Holy... He has filled all 'everything' with His Sovereignty of truth unending in eternal past! (How long

is that Butero?)to say evil is necessary for good to be seen you have to contend with the eternal past where

satan was not! Now He creates satan unto the 'all things were done in creation to God's pleasure'

Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:

for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and

were created.

KJV

So you do understand all things include Lucifer in his created state of perfection...

Ezek 28:14-15a

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:

thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down

in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways

from the day that thou wast created,

KJV

It is clearly A Pleased Father Speaking here boasting of His created son

TILLYou say God created this in satan

God says it is not His created format as all things God made for His pleasure!

God clearly separates Himself from this same creation eternally by(hell)

and He has no pleasure in this death of the wicked

Ezek 33:11a

11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the

death of the wicked;

KJV

Now as simple as it gets God makes a complete statement all things I created

for my pleasure. Where did the no pleasure come from?

 

When God is speaking of the devil, and saying that the devil is the Father of a lie and the truth is not in him, he is speaking only of his created being, the devil.  God is not a liar, but Satan, whom God created is.  God created the devil to be the exact opposite of himself.  Everything God is, the devil is the exact opposite. 

BTW, I am not buying into your blasphemy against the Holy Spirit nonsense.

So attributing the works of God to satan is the act of blaspheming The Holy Spirit {is not the inverse of} by attributing the works of satan to God the same?

God made angels and they are sons of God; God made us we are sons of God;

John 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because

there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own:

for he is a liar, and the father of it.

KJV

How By The Holy Spirit did Jesus call satan a father?

 

It is true that God was speaking of Israel and the gentiles, however, God was giving examples, and those examples were real.  God did create Pharoah, and raised him up to show his power.  That was a real man that God created to oppose Moses.  While we are at it, God also created Janis and Jambrees to oppose Moses.  God hardened Pharoah's heart so he wouldn't give in to the demands of Moses until God was done showing his power.  God hardened his heart again so he would go after Moses and have his army destroyed in the Red Sea.  God created Jacob and Esau to be the men they were and prophesied of their future before they were born.  One was a vessel of honor and one a vessel of dishonor.  No, they were not both created as vessels of honor but one went bad.  That's absurd.  God created Judas Iscariot knowing he would be the betrayer.  He was a vessel of dishonor.  No, he was not a vessel of honor gone bad.  God even told how he would betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver and later cast the money away and hang himself, and it was even foretold that the money would purchase the Potter's field.  There is no way that any of this was an accident.  God creates some vessels of honor and some of dishonor, which means he creates some people good and some evil.  He did the same thing with the angels.  He created 2/3 to be his loyal servants, and Lucifer and 1/3 to rebel.

All are sinners, Moses, pharaoh, all, and God is working in Righteousness, in Sovereignty, causing sin to frame into itself the

non created substance of rebellion against what is... death in eternal separation from God! God fills all that is created with

His Truth how then is there lie-> this is the very fabric of lie it has no created element but rest solely upon truth to exist...

Clearly your reasoning is skewed till you answer this question

God created all things for His pleasure

 Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:

for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and

were created.

KJV

Where did God's no pleasure come from?

Ezek 33:11a

11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the

death of the wicked;

KJV

 

Again, lets examine this logically.  According to you,Please show me the quote where I have said this^? God thought he was creating a beautiful, wonderful and righteous angel when he made Lucifer.  He thought all the other angels were perfect and righteous.  He had no idea that one day down the road, Lucifer would lead a rebellion of 1/3 of the angels and they would turn on him.  He made defective angels.  On top of that, where did iniquity come from?  Remember that Lucifer was a creation of God.  Remember that all the angels are a creation of God.  That means that for better or worse, they were whatever God, the master potter fashioned them to be.  If God didn't place the iniquity in Lucifer when he made him, where did it come from?  While we are at it, it is my contention that God created evil.  That is not even hard to prove, considering that Lucifer is the Father of evil, and God created him.  To accept what you are saying, that would mean God makes mistakes.  It would mean God is not all powerful.  It would mean God doesn't know everything.  If God didn't know what Lucifer was going to do back then, how can he predict what he will do in the future?  We have all these prophetic words about the anti-Christ and about Satan leading an army against God, and how he will be bound for 1000 years.  How is it God can know all of that, but didn't know what Lucifer would do in the beginning?  It doesn't make any logical sense.

You are making foreknowledge causal and removing the Sovereignty of God by removing created choice...

You cannot answer this Scripture can you

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;

but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that

all should come to repentance.

KJV

Will there be those who perish that God was not willing to have perish?

 

On the one hand, if you accept my premise, God knows all things and makes no mistakes.  God created Lucifer knowing full well he would one day rebel against him and lead a rebellion among 1/3 of the angels.  It was God's plan all along.  On the other hand, if I accept your premise, God created defective angels.  He had no idea what they were going to do.  The God that sees a sparrow when it falls didn't see the rebellion coming.  He flat out messed up.  Iniquity sprung up in Lucifer out of nowhere.  God thought he made him good and perfect, but he was wrong.  Don't you see how weak that makes God look?  I understand that from your vantage point, you believe you are defending God's character, but in order to do so, you are making him look weak.  It comes down to an all powerful God who created everything that exists, and nothing took him by surprise.  He created good and evil, or God is imperfect and makes mistakes.  He is not all powerful, and doesn't know everything.  I choose to believe God is all powerful, and there is no way he could have made the kind of mistake it would have taken to create Lucifer, thinking he would remain good and loyal, only to have iniquity spring up in him and have him lead a rebellion.

God's sovereignty is just that God's and it is as He dictates through His Word how that

sovereignty works out into eternity... God Sovereignly gave created choice to His creation as the

evident 'IS' all around us yet in that same sovereignty of created choice is eternal outcome by that

choice of either of God in agreement with The Word (truth) or against by the word of satan (lie)...

As God Himself gives witness he created all things for His pleasure the question must be answered

where did the no pleasure come from?

 

 

As I said, I am 100 percent convinced God knew exactly what Lucifer was going to become when he made him, simply because God is all knowing and all powerful.  At the same time, I do want to add this one disclaimer.  Job's friends all thought they knew all about God and his creation and his mighty works and were wrong in all of their conclusions.  Since neither of us were there when God actually created Lucifer, and we have not had the privilege to have a meeting with God face to face to get his exact account of the events that took place, there is a good chance that we could both be missing the mark in our conclusions. I think that we have in Isaiah accounting of being before God's Presence... His testimony was all that he was 'was' unclean and all where he was 'from' was unclean and this is a heart able to receive Christ (full repentance)... look at the difference of satan who stood before God justifying himself a heart completely sealed by its own rebellion and evil... Just something to think about.

I need Scripture based reasoning- you keep going into rational philosophies I need Scripture to be shown other...

God gives no place to lie-> neither is God the father of lies but satan is... knowledge is not causal it is

simply knowing all that is! As lie 'IS' nothing to Him in His Holy Place! I have given you Scripture

where God has absolutely nothing to do with >in any way shape or form < sin! Now the burden is for you to

produce Scripture that says otherwise... Your whole reasoning is skewed by giving place to lie as a substance

to reckon with it! When in fact it is a non creative form of the perversion of [creative substance= God does claim

as His! that which is perfect]

Eph 4:25-32

25 Therefore, putting away lying, "Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,

" for we are members of one another. 26 "Be angry, and do not sin": do not let the sun

go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. God doesn't!

The  only place is eternal separation with only God's abiding wrath... 28 Let him who stole

steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may

have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth,

but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of

redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away

from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one

another, even as God in Christ forgave you

NKJV

Look it is heresy flat out to say evil originated in God or else show it to me in Scripture please! Love, Steven

Edited March 29, 2014 by enoob57

[Guest Butero]

BUTERO:  I want it to be clear who is saying what, so I am going to go straight through this post and do it in conversation form, rather than using the quote function.  I will not leave any of your comments out.

 

ENOOB57:  Butero bless your heart leave your mind out of this and receive The Mind of God in this!
He's Holy... He has filled all 'everything' with His Sovereignty of truth unending in eternal past! (How long
is that Butero?)to say evil is necessary for good to be seen you have to contend with the eternal past where
satan was not! Now He creates satan unto the 'all things were done in creation to God's pleasure'
Rev 4:11
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:
for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and
were created.
KJV

 

BUTERO:  I am glad you chose that scripture.  It is one I would have injected into the conversation, but rather than focusing on the "and for thy pleasure they are," I want to focus on "for thou hast created all things."  All things means just that, all things.  There is nothing that exists without God.  That would include evil.  All things means all things. 

 

I form the light, and create darkness:  I make peace, and create evil:  I the LORD do all these things.  Isaiah 45:7

 

ENOOB57:  So you do understand all things include Lucifer in his created state of perfection...
Ezek 28:14-15a
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:
thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down
in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways
from the day that thou wast created,
KJV

 

BUTERO:  That only means that Lucifer was perfect in his behavior at the time he was first made.  He appeared to be a good and beautiful angel, but he was not that way on the inside.  On the inside, there was hidden iniquity. 

 

ENOOB57: It is clearly A Pleased Father Speaking here boasting of His created son

 

BUTERO:  It clearly is not.  God is just telling us how Lucifer appeared when he was first created. 

 

ENOOB57: TILLYou say God created this in satan

 

BUTERO:  I never said that.  I said iniquity was on the inside of Lucifer from the beginning, but it wasn't manifested.

 

ENOOB57:  God says it is not His created format as all things God made for His pleasure!
God clearly separates Himself from this same creation eternally by(hell)
and He has no pleasure in this death of the wicked
Ezek 33:11a
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the
death of the wicked;
KJV
Now as simple as it gets God makes a complete statement all things I created
for my pleasure. Where did the no pleasure come from?

 

BUTERO:  God is saying he has no pleasure in the "death of the wicked."  Angels don't die.  He is not speaking of angels but men.  Notice what it says in Matthew 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.  Hell was not created for people, and God doesn't take pleasure in sending people to hell, but that doesn't mean he won't do it.  As a matter of fact, God says just the opposite.  Men are created in the image and likeness of God.  I'll bet that it doesn't pleasure him sending men to hell to be tormented forever, but he does.  BTW, do you consider hell a bad place?  Would you say an all loving God would create such a place of torment, and then send people to live there for eternity?  He did just that.  Why is it so hard for you to imagine he would create evil beings like Satan? 

There is no question that God himself is holy and righteous.  That is all he will ever be.  That doesn't mean he is not capable of creating a being that is the opposite of everything he stands for to show us a contrast between good and evil.  As a matter of fact, God did just that.  It was God that created Lucifer.  Once again, lets look at what it would mean if you are correct and God didn't create Lucifer with iniquity on the inside of him, and if God didn't know all along what Lucifer would become.  It would mean God created a defective angel.  Since 1/3 of all the angels rebelled with Lucifer, it would mean God created 1/3 of the angels defective.  It would mean that God is not all knowing, because he was completely taken by surprise by what Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels did.  This is the same God that knows how many hairs are on each person's head.  You are concerned that my position somehow goes against the character of God, but I would contend that your position limits God's power.  The Bible states that with God, nothing shall be impossible, and you want us to believe that such a mighty God screwed up and created defective angels and didn't see what they were going to do.  I just cannot accept that.

 

When God is speaking of the devil, and saying that the devil is the Father of a lie and the truth is not in him, he is speaking only of his created being, the devil.  God is not a liar, but Satan, whom God created is.  God created the devil to be the exact opposite of himself.  Everything God is, the devil is the exact opposite. 
BTW, I am not buying into your blasphemy against the Holy Spirit nonsense.
So attributing the works of God to satan is the act of blaspheming The Holy Spirit {is not the inverse of} by attributing the works of satan to God the same?

ENOOB57:  God made angels and they are sons of God; God made us we are sons of God;
John 8:44
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because
there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own:
for he is a liar, and the father of it.
KJV
How By The Holy Spirit did Jesus call satan a father?

 

BUTERO:  I was going to go into what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is, but then I realized that would be one of those rabbit trails we are not supposed to go off on, so I won't.  What I will say is that God did not say Satan was a "father."  He called him the father of a lie.  Big difference. 
 

It is true that God was speaking of Israel and the gentiles, however, God was giving examples, and those examples were real.  God did create Pharoah, and raised him up to show his power.  That was a real man that God created to oppose Moses.  While we are at it, God also created Janis and Jambrees to oppose Moses.  God hardened Pharoah's heart so he wouldn't give in to the demands of Moses until God was done showing his power.  God hardened his heart again so he would go after Moses and have his army destroyed in the Red Sea.  God created Jacob and Esau to be the men they were and prophesied of their future before they were born.  One was a vessel of honor and one a vessel of dishonor.  No, they were not both created as vessels of honor but one went bad.  That's absurd.  God created Judas Iscariot knowing he would be the betrayer.  He was a vessel of dishonor.  No, he was not a vessel of honor gone bad.  God even told how he would betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver and later cast the money away and hang himself, and it was even foretold that the money would purchase the Potter's field.  There is no way that any of this was an accident.  God creates some vessels of honor and some of dishonor, which means he creates some people good and some evil.  He did the same thing with the angels.  He created 2/3 to be his loyal servants, and Lucifer and 1/3 to rebel.

ENOOB57:  All are sinners, Moses, pharaoh, all, and God is working in Righteousness, in Sovereignty, causing sin to frame into itself the
non created substance of rebellion against what is... death in eternal separation from God! God fills all that is created with
His Truth how then is there lie-> this is the very fabric of lie it has no created element but rest solely upon truth to exist...
Clearly your reasoning is skewed till you answer this question

God created all things for His pleasure
 Rev 4:11
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:
for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and
were created.
KJV
Where did God's no pleasure come from?
Ezek 33:11a
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the
death of the wicked;
KJV

 

BUTERO:  I already answered it, meaning my reasoning isn't skewed. 
 

Again, lets examine this logically.  According to you,Please show me the quote where I have said this^? God thought he was creating a beautiful, wonderful and righteous angel when he made Lucifer.  He thought all the other angels were perfect and righteous.  He had no idea that one day down the road, Lucifer would lead a rebellion of 1/3 of the angels and they would turn on him.  He made defective angels.  On top of that, where did iniquity come from?  Remember that Lucifer was a creation of God.  Remember that all the angels are a creation of God.  That means that for better or worse, they were whatever God, the master potter fashioned them to be.  If God didn't place the iniquity in Lucifer when he made him, where did it come from?  While we are at it, it is my contention that God created evil.  That is not even hard to prove, considering that Lucifer is the Father of evil, and God created him.  To accept what you are saying, that would mean God makes mistakes.  It would mean God is not all powerful.  It would mean God doesn't know everything.  If God didn't know what Lucifer was going to do back then, how can he predict what he will do in the future?  We have all these prophetic words about the anti-Christ and about Satan leading an army against God, and how he will be bound for 1000 years.  How is it God can know all of that, but didn't know what Lucifer would do in the beginning?  It doesn't make any logical sense.

BUTERO:  You didn't say it directly, but that is exactly what your position means.  Are you going to acknowledge that God didn't think he was creating a "beautiful, wonderful and righteous angel when he made Lucifer?"  Are you going to admit that God didn't think that Lucifer and the 1/3 of the angels that rebelled with him "were perfect and righteous," and acknowledge that God had to know they would eventually turn on him because he created them to do just that?  What exactly is your purpose in asking me that question?  Does this go against your position?  If so, how?

 

ENOOB57:  You are making foreknowledge causal and removing the Sovereignty of God by removing created choice...
You cannot answer this Scripture can you
2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that
all should come to repentance.
KJV
Will there be those who perish that God was not willing to have perish?

 

BUTERO:  What he is saying is that God made a way where anyone could in theory be saved.  The problem is that not everyone will be saved because there will be those who are given spiritual blindness.  Jesus said he spoke in parables so the scripture would be fulfilled that seeing they won't see and hearing they won't hear.  Using your logic, why wouldn't Jesus want them to hear and understand so they could be saved?  In addition to that, if God is not willing that any should perish in the way you are saying it, why do some perish?  The fact of the matter is, he is only saying that he made a way for anyone to be saved.  They have to believe on Jesus and accept him as their Lord and Savior.  We know that not everyone will do that because God didn't choose to save everyone.  matthew 20:16b "...for many be called, but few chosen."  The whole world is called, but we know the whole world won't be saved.  Few are chosen.  Few are pre-destinated to be saved.  Straight is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it. 

 

On the one hand, if you accept my premise, God knows all things and makes no mistakes.  God created Lucifer knowing full well he would one day rebel against him and lead a rebellion among 1/3 of the angels.  It was God's plan all along.  On the other hand, if I accept your premise, God created defective angels.  He had no idea what they were going to do.  The God that sees a sparrow when it falls didn't see the rebellion coming.  He flat out messed up.  Iniquity sprung up in Lucifer out of nowhere.  God thought he made him good and perfect, but he was wrong.  Don't you see how weak that makes God look?  I understand that from your vantage point, you believe you are defending God's character, but in order to do so, you are making him look weak.  It comes down to an all powerful God who created everything that exists, and nothing took him by surprise.  He created good and evil, or God is imperfect and makes mistakes.  He is not all powerful, and doesn't know everything.  I choose to believe God is all powerful, and there is no way he could have made the kind of mistake it would have taken to create Lucifer, thinking he would remain good and loyal, only to have iniquity spring up in him and have him lead a rebellion.

ENOOB57:  God's sovereignty is just that God's and it is as He dictates through His Word how that
sovereignty works out into eternity... God Sovereignly gave created choice to His creation as the
evident 'IS' all around us yet in that same sovereignty of created choice is eternal outcome by that
choice of either of God in agreement with The Word (truth) or against by the word of satan (lie)...
As God Himself gives witness he created all things for His pleasure the question must be answered
where did the no pleasure come from?

 

BUTERO:  I already answered that question. 
 

 

As I said, I am 100 percent convinced God knew exactly what Lucifer was going to become when he made him, simply because God is all knowing and all powerful.  At the same time, I do want to add this one disclaimer.  Job's friends all thought they knew all about God and his creation and his mighty works and were wrong in all of their conclusions.  Since neither of us were there when God actually created Lucifer, and we have not had the privilege to have a meeting with God face to face to get his exact account of the events that took place, there is a good chance that we could both be missing the mark in our conclusions. I think that we have in Isaiah accounting of being before God's Presence... His testimony was all that he was 'was' unclean and all where he was 'from' was unclean and this is a heart able to receive Christ (full repentance)... look at the difference of satan who stood before God justifying himself a heart completely sealed by its own rebellion and evil... Just something to think about.

 

BUTERO:  First of all, the section in this "quote" that is not in black is something you obviously added.  I just want that stated for the record in case someone may think I spoke those words to make a point, or think you highlighted those points that I supposedly made to make a point.  Those are your words.  I can't make any sense of them. 
 

ENOOB57:  I need Scripture based reasoning- you keep going into rational philosophies I need Scripture to be shown other...
God gives no place to lie-> neither is God the father of lies but satan is... knowledge is not causal it is
simply knowing all that is! As lie 'IS' nothing to Him in His Holy Place! I have given you Scripture
where God has absolutely nothing to do with >in any way shape or form < sin! Now the burden is for you to
produce Scripture that says otherwise... Your whole reasoning is skewed by giving place to lie as a substance
to reckon with it! When in fact it is a non creative form of the perversion of [creative substance= God does claim
as His! that which is perfect]

 

BUTERO:  God created Lucifer, knowing full well that Lucifer had a defect, iniquity.  God is not the Father of a lie, but his creation, Lucifer or Satan is.  That doesn't make God less holy and it doesn't make him a liar.  It means his creation is a liar.  One thing you will never be able to explain away is where Lucifer came from.  God made him.  God made the Father of a lie.  God fashioned him.  There is no denying that.  You are claiming that somehow God created Lucifer in perfection, and somehow Lucifer developed iniquity out of thin air, taking God by surprise.  That would mean God is not all knowing, and that he is not able to create a perfect product, in this case an angel.  He would be no better than a person who creates an automobile thinking it is perfect, only to find out later on it has defects and must be recalled.  God doesn't make mistakes. 

 

ENOOB57:  Eph 4:25-32
25 Therefore, putting away lying, "Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,
" for we are members of one another. 26 "Be angry, and do not sin": do not let the sun
go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. God doesn't!

The  only place is eternal separation with only God's abiding wrath... 28 Let him who stole

steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may

have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth,
but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of
redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away
from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one
another, even as God in Christ forgave you
NKJV

Look it is heresy flat out to say evil originated in God or else show it to me in Scripture please! Love, Steven

 

BUTERO:  I could just as easily call it heresy to claim God is not all knowing, and created imperfect angels, having no idea they would turn on him.  It is beyond heresy.  It is pure lunacy to me.  Even so, those kind of comments serve no useful purpose.  Since you said please...

 

I form the light and create darkness:  I make peace and create evil:  I the LORD do all these things.  Isaiah 45:7

 

God has a purpose for evil as well as good. 

 

He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.  Psalm 78:49

 

Who sent evil angels against the Egyptians?  The Lord.  God's ways are not our ways.  They are higher. 

 

 

[enoob57]

Butero I travel to my Mom and Sister... she is 97 and my sister is 77 and I being 57 this July

it is my monthly habit to see to their needs. Thank you for the organized post I will formulate

the orbs and what I see as to the directive in this debate and see if you agree and post on

Tuesday night! I will thank you in advance with your patience with me in this. I look forward

to the exhausting of ourselves in the points of this in what I consider the foundational aspects

of knowing God presented by His Word to us. Love ya brother, Steven