PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

[Atwood]

"concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come." Why did you quote this with "The Day of Christ," instead of "The Day of the Lord"? "The Day of Christ" as here, never occurs in the Bible (unless you insist on it here). Philippians has twice "day of Christ" with no "the" in the original text. Your modern authoritative translations have "The Day of the Lord," a frequent expression in the Bible. Have you done a check of the occurrences of "The Day of the Lord" in the Bible to see what the expression means? I also don't know why you render "had come," instead of "has come."

[Atwood]

 

IMMINENT or Doctrine of IMMINENCE: The Next Expectation; No Proceeding Event.

Posting this again, since the first one got buried.

I often hear pre-trib rapture believers claiming other positions violate the doctrine of imminence. The word of God has no such doctrine. It was created by pre-trib scholars as another means of supporting this theory. But the only way such a doctrine could carry any weight is (if) a pre-trib rapture is proven to be the correct position, which won't be known until it either happens or fails. If the seven year covenant is confirmed without a rapture occurring, then this doctrine falls flat on its face, along with the theory it was designed to support.

On the other hand, I want to point out another violation I see, a real one. I believe the pre-trib theory violates God's appointed times (feasts). In Christ' first advent (first coming) all of the spring feasts were fulfilled by Christ at there appointed times, to the very day and hour. All of these spring feasts were fulfilled in the spring of the same year. So it is highly likely that the fall feasts will be fulfilled in the same manner. There are still three feasts remaining, Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles. And these feasts have there appointed times as well, and will likewise be fulfilled by Christ upon His return. If a pre-trib rapture occurred, this would delay the two final feasts for seven years. I just can not see that happening.

All of these fall feasts occur within the same month. Actually, only 15 days separates them. Rosh Hashanah (feast of trumpets) begins on the first day of the seventh month on the Hebrew calendar, after the first sliver of the new moon is sighted with the naked eye. This is the only feast that no one knows the day or hour it will occur, as the new moon sometimes does not appear until the next day. This feast is on Tishri 1 & 2. The Day of Atonement begins on Tishri 10, followed by the feast of Tabernacles on Tishri 15.

However, the pre-trib theory is not alone in violating the Biblical feasts, because the post-trib theory would violate these feasts as well. A rapture and second coming occurring on the same day would force all of these feasts into a single day. I don't see that happening either. The spring feasts were fulfilled just before His departure back to heaven and the fall feasts will be fulfilled upon His return.

Just something to think about.

Cheers

 

On imminence, how do you take James 5?

[rollinTHUNDER]

Thunder

 

We Gentiles are the wild olive shoot which is grafted into the olive tree which Israel (being a natural branch)  has been pulled out of.  The Olive tree is Jesus Christ.   John 15:1 - "I am the true vine"  Jesus.  v.5 - I am the vine, you are the branches.

 

Israel is not the olive tree, they were branches of the olive tree.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Thanks Marv, I made the correction.

[rollinTHUNDER]

(Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

 

See the separation?

 

Luke 21:24

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

 Have you figured out when the times of the gentiles will be fulfilled? 

Revelation 11:2

But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

 

Perhaps Israel will remain blinded until they see the sign of the Son of man appear (rapture).  Then they will look up and know that their redemption is near.  Perhaps the rapture is the event that will make Israel envious.

 

Romans 11:11

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

 

Has Israel ever been jealous of the Church?  No, but the day is coming.

 

Cheers

[Hindsfeet]

Rolling,
Your claim that the Bride is not ready until late in the game has caused me to do some digging, thanks for that!

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

I notice it says 'Wife' has made herself ready. This is distinctly different than Bride. If you research the roots of this word, you will find that she is Married. Hence, the Marriage  has come and she will now be ready to be Displayed. As is the custom for Jewish Weddings. see Joel 2:16

Also notice in prior chapters - a few, amongst many.

Also - Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
 Rev 18:23 - And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

 

    We are not waiting for the trib martyrs to be killed in order to be Ready and married. These are Not part of the bride, however they do enter the millenial reign due to their belief.
The trib martyrs are too late, they missed something, they were absent from heaven at the time, handing out the wedding garments maybe?  thus, their works do follow them.

These trib martyrs are Different than the ones in the Fifth seal under the altar(which is before the mandatory mark and beheading). The fifth seal martyrs are martyrs throughout Time past (and present), versus the Tribulation Saint Martyrs. Notice the 5th seal martyrs are handed white garments. Note that white garments are typical to attend a Jewish wedding.(Matt 22)

Is the Wedding Feast, really the Rapture? Wedding and Wedding Feast are two separate events.
How long did Queen Esther prepare by bathing in oils and spices? I think it was for a full year before she was ready to be married. This took place in the Kings house, not her own house.

The Jewish Wedding Ceremony is a multi-part ceremony over an extended period of time with much symbolism which we can see referenced throughout scripture.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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Good Morning 

 

 

You must have missed this.....

 

And that reminds me of something else pre-trib fans claim, that "God can not deal with Israel until He finishes dealing with the Church first." I wonder who thought of that ridiculous statement.

 

 

GOD did (is it still ridiculous?), It's called the Book of Revelation; Specifically.....

 

(Revelation 19:7-16) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.  {10} And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  {11} And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

So who is The Lambs Wife? .................THE CHURCH:

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

(Romans 7:4) "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."

 

(2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

Can you tell me Please, How in the World (Christ's Bride......"The Church") and Christ are just Married and had Dinner In Heaven. Then Christ, with HIS BRIDE Following, .... treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.".....

 

That CULMINATES TRIBULATION.

 

........but then, The Church is Raptured?????? 

 

Any comment?

 

 

Luke 21:24

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Have you figured out when the times of the gentiles will be fulfilled?

Revelation 11:2

But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

 

 

And....?

 

Well Unfortunately, there are Gentiles that want nothing to do with Jesus.....they're called UNBELIEVERS and inhabiters of the earth. 

[rollinTHUNDER]

 

 

 

 

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Good Morning 

 

 

You must have missed this.....

 

 

 

 

And that reminds me of something else pre-trib fans claim, that "God can not deal with Israel until He finishes dealing with the Church first." I wonder who thought of that ridiculous statement.

 

GOD did (is it still ridiculous?), It's called the Book of Revelation; Specifically.....

 

(Revelation 19:7-16) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.  {10} And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  {11} And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

So who is The Lambs Wife? .................THE CHURCH:

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

(Romans 7:4) "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."

 

(2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

Can you tell me Please, How in the World (Christ's Bride......"The Church") and Christ are just Married and had Dinner In Heaven. Then Christ, with HIS BRIDE Following, .... treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.".....

 

That CULMINATES TRIBULATION.

 

........but then, The Church is Raptured?????? 

 

Any comment?

 

Well, you sure have learned the fine art of butchering someone's post. Why combine two partial posts into one?

As long as you see God's wrath as the tribulation, you'll keep tripping over the truth. The great trib runs 42 months, this is the tribulation, but it is still not the end of the age. 

Daniel 12:10-12

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

God is not going to unleash His wrath until (all) of the martyr's have been killed.

Revelation 6:9-11

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

 

rollinTHUNDER (partial quote):

Luke 21:24

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Have you figured out when the times of the gentiles will be fulfilled?

Revelation 11:2

But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

And....?

 

Well Unfortunately, there are Gentiles that want nothing to do with Jesus.....they're called UNBELIEVERS and inhabiters of the earth.

Unbelievers yes, but inhabiters would include both.

Cheers

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

 

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Well, you sure have learned the fine art of butchering someone's post

 

Say again?  Can you show the "Butchering"?

 

I merely posted the 99.8% of the Post you forgot to reply to.....The Main Subject.  Here is what you said...

 

"And that reminds me of something else pre-trib fans claim, that "God can not deal with Israel until He finishes dealing with the Church first." I wonder who thought of that ridiculous statement."

 

Then I provided a Direct Refutation (SEE: Revelation 19:7-16) and supporting Passages for "THE CHURCH": (Ephesians 5:31-32), (Romans 7:4), (2 Corinthians 11:2).

 

 

As long as you see God's wrath as the tribulation, you'll keep tripping over the truth.

 

 

GOD"S Wrath is (SEE beginning: Rev 6) The Seven: Seals, Trumpets, Bowls, and Vials and begins with the Abomination of Desolation; Mid Point of the 70th week of Daniel....

 

(Matthew 24:15-18) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,  (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  {16}  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  {17}  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  {18}  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes."

 

Which then Culminates with the DAY OF THE LORD: (SEE: Revelation 19:7-16)

 

 

The great trib runs 42 months

 

Yes it does.

 

 

God is not going to unleash His wrath until (all) of the martyr's have been killed.

 

Are you saying GOD's Wrath Doesn't start with the Breaking of The Seals? 

 

 

Unbelievers yes, but inhabiters would include both.

 

It most assuredly doesn't include "The Church"....they're already gone:  The Rapture 

[rollinTHUNDER]

 

 

 

 

 

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Well, you sure have learned the fine art of butchering someone's post

 

Say again?  Can you show the "Butchering"?

 

I merely posted the 99.8% of the Post you forgot to reply to.....The Main Subject.  Here is what you said...

 

"And that reminds me of something else pre-trib fans claim, that "God can not deal with Israel until He finishes dealing with the Church first." I wonder who thought of that ridiculous statement."

 

Then I provided a Direct Refutation (SEE: Revelation 19:7-16) and supporting Passages for "THE CHURCH": (Ephesians 5:31-32), (Romans 7:4), (2 Corinthians 11:2).

 

 

As long as you see God's wrath as the tribulation, you'll keep tripping over the truth.

 

 

GOD"S Wrath is (SEE beginning: Rev 6) The Seven: Seals, Trumpets, Bowls, and Vials and begins with the Abomination of Desolation; Mid Point of the 70th week of Daniel....

 

(Matthew 24:15-18) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,  (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  {16}  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  {17}  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  {18}  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes."

 

Which then Culminates with the DAY OF THE LORD: (SEE: Revelation 19:7-16)

 

 

The great trib runs 42 months

 

Yes it does.

 

 

God is not going to unleash His wrath until (all) of the martyr's have been killed.

 

Are you saying GOD's Wrath Doesn't start with the Breaking of The Seals? 

 

 

Unbelievers yes, but inhabiters would include both.

 

It most assuredly doesn't include "The Church"....they're already gone:  The Rapture 

 

Enoch, I told you I was not going to waste time in this. If you are sold on the tribulation as God's wrath, I'll just wait and discuss it with you when I see you're still here with the rest of us after Daniel's 70th week begins. Keep studying. The things you are saying sounds like me ten years ago, but I don't have time to debate this subject each and every time someone new comes along. So I hope the Lord blesses you as you study His Word.

Cheers

[Enoch2021]

Enoch, I told you I was not going to waste time in this. If you are sold on the tribulation as God's wrath, I'll just wait and discuss it with you when I see you're still here with the rest of us after Daniel's 70th week begins. Keep studying. The things you are saying sounds like me ten years ago, but I don't have time to debate this subject each and every time someone new comes along. So I hope the Lord blesses you as you study His Word.

Cheers

 

 

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Enoch, I told you I was not going to waste time in this.

 

As I have mentioned, I don't want you to waste time.  I find it rather interesting, you were more than willing to "waste time" exclaiming your views; or more accurately, your Opinion (unsupported), before this. 

 

 

If you are sold on the tribulation as God's wrath

 

Yes, it's called the Book of Revelation; and I'm pretty much "SOLD" on it.

 

The things you are saying sounds like me ten years ago

 

Ahhh yes, Old news that you've dealt with in the past.

 

And, just because you have done something for a long time or @ some point in the distant past doesn't make it Correct.

 

Length of Time Doesn't = Correct.   In Fact, It's an irrelevant equivocation.