PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

[Enoch2021]

TO ALL:

Everyone is off-topic. Please can a pre-tribber attempt to answer the questions in the opening post:

1) 2 Thessalonians 1 states that believers who are persecuted get their relief at the second coming, not at an earlier rapture.

2) 2 Thessalonians 2 states that we will be gathered AFTER the revealing of the antichrist, yet pre-tribbers believe we will be gathered before the tribulation.

What say you on these two verses. Please do not change the subject when answering these questions, just explain what you believe those verses mean.

 

 

==============================================================================

 

 

Are you joking?

 

I've already explained your mis-reading of these passages multiple times.  See: Equivocations with 1 Thess and not posting the entire Passage 2 Thess.

 

I'll post 2 Thess again....

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:3-9) "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  {5} Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 

 

{7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"

 

 

The "he" in the passage above is the Holy Spirit the "Restrainer".

 

For him (anti-christ) to be revealed, the "RESTRAINER" must be removed!! The "Restrainer" is The Holy Spirit and was given to the Body of Christ after Christ left.

 

(John 14:16) " And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

(John 14:26) " But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

(John 16:7) " Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

 

Jesus had to Leave for the "Comforter to Come".  Who did he give it to......"The Church".  It appears from John, that they (Jesus and the Comforter) can't be in the same place @ once.

 

There is absolutely NO WAY the Comforter/RESTRAINER LEAVES THE CHURCH......HE'S THE EMBODIMENT OF IT!!

[ARGOSY]

TO ALL:

Everyone is off-topic. Please can a pre-tribber attempt to answer the questions in the opening post:

1) 2 Thessalonians 1 states that believers who are persecuted get their relief at the second coming, not at an earlier rapture.

2) 2 Thessalonians 2 states that we will be gathered AFTER the revealing of the antichrist, yet pre-tribbers believe we will be gathered before the tribulation.

What say you on these two verses. Please do not change the subject when answering these questions, just explain what you believe those verses mean.

 

 

==============================================================================

 

 

Are you joking?

 

I've already explained your mis-reading of these passages multiple times.  See: Equivocations with 1 Thess and not posting the entire Passage 2 Thess.

 

I'll post 2 Thess again....

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:3-9) "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  {5} Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 

 

{7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"

 

 

The "he" in the passage above is the Holy Spirit the "Restrainer".

 

For him (anti-christ) to be revealed, the "RESTRAINER" must be removed!! The "Restrainer" is The Holy Spirit and was given to the Body of Christ after Christ left.

 

(John 14:16) " And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

(John 14:26) " But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

(John 16:7) " Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

 

Jesus had to Leave for the "Comforter to Come".  Who did he give it to......"The Church".  It appears from John, that they (Jesus and the Comforter) can't be in the same place @ once.

 

There is absolutely NO WAY the Comforter/RESTRAINER LEAVES THE CHURCH......HE'S THE EMBODIMENT OF IT!!

You haven't actually answered the question. You are referring to the later restrainer, but the verses are saying that the man of sin must be revealed before our gathering occurs:

2 Thess 2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[Enoch2021]

 

Hey Spock,

 

Did you read this: ?

 

 

Don't know what anyone thinks that's why I posted the Passages in TOTO.

 

From the strange reaction of the Sheep and the subsequent answer from the LORD, its quite apparent they helped either the Tribulation Saints or the 144,000... or Both.

 

 

Off the Sheep and Goats for a minute, Check this....

 

Compare and Contrast Daniels "little horn" in Chapter 7:

 

(Daniel 7:21) "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;"

 

(Revelation 13:7) "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

 

(Matthew 16:18) " And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

 

Look @ this..... Daniels "little horn" (anti-christ) prevails against the saints and lines up perfectly with Rev 13:7.......BUT look @ what Jesus said concerning The Church in Matthew!!

 

Those saints that are being "OVERCOME" in Rev 13:7 by the beast can't be the Church; why?  Christ said so!!

 

See it?

 

You seem to be equating the beast with the gates of hell. Where is your scriptural evidence for this? Please post it..

To me the gates of hell are referring to a person's soul, God will prevail.

But regarding death and martyrdom these have always occurred in the church, and we are to expect persecutions so its possible for someone to conquer our bodies (eg the beast) but impossible for anything like the gates of hell to conquer our souls.

 

 

 

=======================================================

 

 

To me the gates of hell are referring to a person's soul

 

Please provide Scriptural Support for this. 

 

You have to "Spiritualize" this; if not, you're in a pickle (another one)

 

Do you think this is an allegory?  Where do you think satan, the beast, and false prophet come from and are associated with.... Shang Ra La?

 

 

But regarding death and martyrdom these have always occurred in the church,

 

Yes they have.  Those are the Martyrs in Rev 6:9.  And they were told to rest yet for a season till their brethren (Tribulation Saints....the exact ones in Dan 7:21 and Rev 13:7 are talking about) should be killed as they were.

 

 

like the gates of hell to conquer our souls.

 

You're making this up.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

TO ALL:

Everyone is off-topic. Please can a pre-tribber attempt to answer the questions in the opening post:

1) 2 Thessalonians 1 states that believers who are persecuted get their relief at the second coming, not at an earlier rapture.

2) 2 Thessalonians 2 states that we will be gathered AFTER the revealing of the antichrist, yet pre-tribbers believe we will be gathered before the tribulation.

What say you on these two verses. Please do not change the subject when answering these questions, just explain what you believe those verses mean.

 

 

==============================================================================

 

 

Are you joking?

 

I've already explained your mis-reading of these passages multiple times.  See: Equivocations with 1 Thess and not posting the entire Passage 2 Thess.

 

I'll post 2 Thess again....

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:3-9) "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  {5} Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 

 

{7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"

 

 

The "he" in the passage above is the Holy Spirit the "Restrainer".

 

For him (anti-christ) to be revealed, the "RESTRAINER" must be removed!! The "Restrainer" is The Holy Spirit and was given to the Body of Christ after Christ left.

 

(John 14:16) " And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

(John 14:26) " But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

(John 16:7) " Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

 

Jesus had to Leave for the "Comforter to Come".  Who did he give it to......"The Church".  It appears from John, that they (Jesus and the Comforter) can't be in the same place @ once.

 

There is absolutely NO WAY the Comforter/RESTRAINER LEAVES THE CHURCH......HE'S THE EMBODIMENT OF IT!!

 

You haven't actually answered the question. You are referring to the later restrainer, but the verses are saying that the man of sin must be revealed before our gathering occurs:

2 Thess 2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

 

 

=============================================================

 

You haven't actually answered the question.

 

Yes, I actually have.... quite Explicitly.  AND THEN (see above), the Wicked shall be revealed. It doesn't get any plainer than that.

 

You are referring to the later restrainer,

 

Is there an earlier one?? 

[Hindsfeet]

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
revealed - apokalypsis
2 Thess 1:10     
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.
come = erchomai
2 Thess 2:1 - Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
coming = Parousia

 

3 separate occasions imho

[ARGOSY]

Is there an earlier one?? 

Your view on the restrainer being the Holy Spirit who is removed at the rapture contradicts 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-3 which says we will only be gathered after the man of sin is revealed. Your view is incorrect because it contradicts scripture.

[ARGOSY]

Hey Spock,

 

Did you read this: ?

 

 

Don't know what anyone thinks that's why I posted the Passages in TOTO.

 

From the strange reaction of the Sheep and the subsequent answer from the LORD, its quite apparent they helped either the Tribulation Saints or the 144,000... or Both.

 

 

Off the Sheep and Goats for a minute, Check this....

 

Compare and Contrast Daniels "little horn" in Chapter 7:

 

(Daniel 7:21) "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;"

 

(Revelation 13:7) "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

 

(Matthew 16:18) " And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

 

Look @ this..... Daniels "little horn" (anti-christ) prevails against the saints and lines up perfectly with Rev 13:7.......BUT look @ what Jesus said concerning The Church in Matthew!!

 

Those saints that are being "OVERCOME" in Rev 13:7 by the beast can't be the Church; why?  Christ said so!!

 

See it?

You seem to be equating the beast with the gates of hell. Where is your scriptural evidence for this? Please post it..

To me the gates of hell are referring to a person's soul, God will prevail.

But regarding death and martyrdom these have always occurred in the church, and we are to expect persecutions so its possible for someone to conquer our bodies (eg the beast) but impossible for anything like the gates of hell to conquer our souls.

 

 

=======================================================

 

 

To me the gates of hell are referring to a person's soul

 

Please provide Scriptural Support for this. 

 

You have to "Spiritualize" this; if not, you're in a pickle (another one)

 

Do you think this is an allegory?  Where do you think satan, the beast, and false prophet come from and are associated with.... Shang Ra La?

 

 

But regarding death and martyrdom these have always occurred in the church,

 

Yes they have.  Those are the Martyrs in Rev 6:9.  And they were told to rest yet for a season till their brethren (Tribulation Saints....the exact ones in Dan 7:21 and Rev 13:7 are talking about) should be killed as they were.

 

 

like the gates of hell to conquer our souls.

 

You're making this up.

I asked for your scriptural evidence that the beast and the gates of hell are the same thing. Without that your whole point about "prevailing" fails. The beast prevails over the church by physical persecution. But the gates of hell cannot prevail over the church. Both are true.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

===================================================================

 

 

I asked for your scriptural evidence that the beast and the gates of hell are the same thing.

 

Argosy...

 

They are not the same thing.  It would be Tantamount to saying that my house and I are the same.    Am I my House?....Nope.  But that's where I LIVE and have Dominion Over!!

 

You're Quibbling over an Abstract Reification Fallacy....."Gates" are just "Gates"

 

Without that your whole point about "prevailing" fails

 

Too funny.

 

Do yourself a favor;

 

Outline (in writing, like a spreadsheet) Revelation and List all the Players... Israel, "The Church", Tribulation Saints, 24 Elders et al then list all the Characteristics of each.  You will be Blessed.

 

You need to differentiate between......The Martyrs, Tribulation Saints, 24 Elders, 144,000 Sealed, Angels.

 

The beast prevails over the church by physical persecution

 

You're making stuff up again.....Scripture Support? 

 

Especially when Jesus Christ Himself said the exact opposite.....

 

(Matthew 16:18) " And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

 

You see, they're not Literal "Gates" attacking "The Church".  "GATES" are not Sentient Beings....it's what is INSIDE and is Representative of the "GATES" that is of Concern.

 

 

And....

 

How in the World can the beast PREVAIL over The Church when SHE is @ the Marriage Supper in Rev 19 ??

[ARGOSY]

 

 

===================================================================

 

 

I asked for your scriptural evidence that the beast and the gates of hell are the same thing.

 

Argosy...

 

They are not the same thing.  It would be Tantamount to saying that my house and I are the same.    Am I my House?....Nope.  But that's where I LIVE and have Dominion Over!!

 

You're Quibbling over an Abstract Reification Fallacy....."Gates" are just "Gates"

 

Without that your whole point about "prevailing" fails

 

Too funny.

 

Do yourself a favor;

 

Outline (in writing, like a spreadsheet) Revelation and List all the Players... Israel, "The Church", Tribulation Saints, 24 Elders et al then list all the Characteristics of each.  You will be Blessed.

 

You need to differentiate between......The Martyrs, Tribulation Saints, 24 Elders, 144,000 Sealed, Angels.

 

The beast prevails over the church by physical persecution

 

You're making stuff up again.....Scripture Support? 

 

Especially when Jesus Christ Himself said the exact opposite.....

 

(Matthew 16:18) " And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

 

You see, they're not Literal "Gates" attacking "The Church".  "GATES" are not Sentient Beings....it's what is INSIDE and is Representative of the "GATES" that is of Concern.

 

 

And....

 

How in the World can the beast PREVAIL over The Church when SHE is @ the Marriage Supper in Rev 19 ??

The bible says the beast will conquer the church:

5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them.

Please show your scriptural support that these saints are only Jews.

[Spock]

Brother Argosy,

You keep asking for scripture support but when someone gives it to you, you ignore it and appear frustrated thinking you have been ignored. That is not the case.

Brother Enoch, for one, gave you scripture about how the devil or ac cannot PREVAIL against the church, but you seem to discard this and want something else.

Here it is again. If you don't want to buy it, fine by me, don't. But please acknowledge you have been given it, you just refuse to accept its meaning. Fair enough? One last time, read this:

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all the families, tongues, and nations (Rev 13:7).

Now, this war with the saints and overcomes them also is predicted in Daniel. He makes war with the saints, Daniel says, and prevails against them. These saints could not be the church of Jesus Christ. When Jesus announced to Peter his church, he said, "Upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." There is no way that Satan can prevail against the church of Jesus Christ.

But these are the people who have received Christ during this final seven-year period after the church has been taken out. As a result of the witness of those two witnesses, or the witness of the one hundred and forty-four thousand, these people have received Jesus Christ as Lord. They have acknowledged Jesus as their Lord. But "he will make war against them and prevail them". He has power to put to death and he will put to death those that believe in Jesus Christ. But being martyred is preferable to submitting to his authority or worshipping him, because we will find out in the next chapter that if anybody worships him they lose any chance of salvation forever.

And so John tells us here of the reign over all of the families of the earth, the tongues, and the nations.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).

Spock out