PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

[Enoch2021]

The bible says the beast will conquer the church:

5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them.

Please show your scriptural support that these saints are only Jews.

 

 

 

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As I requested in the past...... when you quote Scripture, Please provide Book/Chapter/ and Verse....not just Verse.  Thanks

 

 

Please show your scriptural support that these saints are only Jews.

 

Why?  I never said that.  It's a Strawman.  I'm saying that these are not "THE CHURCH" of which I've SUPPORTED quite demonstrably.

 

Also, track down "GOD'S Holy People"....... can you tell me who that is?

 

 

Any comment on: Thyatira, Philadelphia and the Purpose of the GREAT TRIBULATION ??

[Spock]

One more Bible interpretation for all you post tribbies who think the trumpet call in the book of Thessalonians is the 7th trumpet of revelation. Here is an interpretation form the esteemed Chuck Smith. Again, you may not buy it, but at least ponder it. Enjoy.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Mat 24:31).

Now those who take the post-tribulation theory, that Jesus is not going to take the church out until after the Great Tribulation, use this as one of their chief verses to defend their position. For He shall then, after He returns, after the Great Tribulation, He will then send His angels with the sound of a trumpet. The trumpet of God shall sound, "and they shall gather together, His elect from the four winds from one end of the heavens to the other."

Now one thing that they always disregard is that the Bible speaks of that trump by which the church will be caught up to glory, as the trump of God always shall sound; whereas, they confuse that with the seventh trumpet of the book of Revelation, because the trump of God is called the last trump. And so they say, the seventh trump is the last trumpet in the book of Revelation. But again in the book of Revelation there, the trumpets of the seven angels, and the seven angels prepared to sound their seven trumpets. And there is a vast difference between the seventh trumpet, which is declared to be a woe, and that trump of God whereby the church should be called to her reward.

Now this particular verse is one of those compilations where Jesus put together three verses out of the Old Testament; whereby, God has promised that when the return of Christ takes place, and the kingdom is established, that God is again going to take back the Jews as His people, as a nation, and He is going to bring them back in the land, and honor them once more.

And in Deuteronomy chapter thirty, three and four, in that particular promise as the Lord is talking about returning them from their captivity, He said, "and if any of you are driven out to the uttermost parts of heaven, from there will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from there He will fetch you. Notice He will gather together from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, but that heaven if you be scattered, He will gather you from there. Deuteronomy thirty-four.

In Isaiah 27, twelve and thirteen, there the Lord said, again as He is predicting the regathering of the people "oh ye children of Israel", the end of verse twelve, "it shall come to pass in that day that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish, in the land of Assyria, the outcast from the land of Egypt, and they shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem." And so the trumpet, the great trumpet sounding, Jesus makes reference to that.

And then once more in Isaiah chapter eleven, verse twelve. Here they are told to be gathered from the four corners of the earth, or from the four winds, as Jesus makes reference here. "An ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

So it is not at all damaging to the scripture, but only in harmony with the other prophecies, that this be understood to be the elect Jews, not the church.

[rollinTHUNDER]

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

revealed - apokalypsis

2 Thess 1:10     

When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

come = erchomai

2 Thess 2:1 - Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

coming = Parousia

 

3 separate occasions imho

Hi hindsfeet,

These are different. There are two different types of coming.

2 Timothy 4:1

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at (his appearing) and (his kingdom);

In the first type Christ is coming to gather His elect (chosen), in accordance with the promise He made to His disciples in John 14.

John 14:2-3

My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Then the second type is the second coming when He is coming with those who were previously gathered.

Revelation 19:11-14

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

The first two scriptures you posted above in (2 Thes.1:7,10) relate to the second type, which is the physical second coming and the beginning of the millennial kingdom (end of the age). The third and/or last scripture you posted above (2 Thes. 2:1) relates to His (appearing when He gathers) His elect (chosen) ones who are ready.

Jesus laid it all out so beautifully when He answered His disciple's question about the sign of His coming and the end of the age (Matt. 24:3). The first type is the appearing and gathering as seen in the passage below:

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The second type is the second coming as seen in the parable He gave for the sign of the end of the age below.

Matthew 25:31

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left......

With these two comings in mind, now lets go back and re-visit 2 Tim. 4.

2 Timothy 4:1

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at (his appearing) and (his kingdom);

As we can see, in each of these two comings, Christ is rendering His (judgments).

In the first coming, His judgment begins in the house of the Lord.

1 Peter 4:17-18

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

 

Revelation 22:12

And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

So when He appears and gathers His elect, this is the beginning judgment of His people. And this is also where this mystery now becomes very hard to understand. As you can see, Christ did not cast His pearls before swine. Instead He was very careful to answer the disciple's question, while also leaving the mystery intact. The judgment of His people is then shown in the parables. There are actually three different rewards for His people, but let's not get into them here, because it would probably bring more confusion at this point.

Then shortly after He is finished judging the House of the Lord, He will return to judge the nations at His second coming. This is when the goats are killed, and the sheep will enter into His millennial kingdom, based on How they treated the least of His brethren.

As you already know, this is very controversial. Post-trib believes the appearing and gathering is both the rapture and second coming combined into one event. Pre-trib believes the appearing and gathering is only the second coming and that Christ did not mention anything about the rapture here, which totally ignores chapter 25.  But what I'm saying is different than both, because in my view, the appearing and gathering is only the rapture, and it has nothing to do with the physical second coming to earth whatsoever.  These are two different and separate events.

I hope that helps.

Cheers

[Enoch2021]

One more Bible interpretation for all you post tribbies who think the trumpet call in the book of Thessalonians is the 7th trumpet of revelation. Here is an interpretation form the esteemed Chuck Smith. Again, you may not buy it, but at least ponder it. Enjoy.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Mat 24:31).

Now those who take the post-tribulation theory, that Jesus is not going to take the church out until after the Great Tribulation, use this as one of their chief verses to defend their position. For He shall then, after He returns, after the Great Tribulation, He will then send His angels with the sound of a trumpet. The trumpet of God shall sound, "and they shall gather together, His elect from the four winds from one end of the heavens to the other."

Now one thing that they always disregard is that the Bible speaks of that trump by which the church will be caught up to glory, as the trump of God always shall sound; whereas, they confuse that with the seventh trumpet of the book of Revelation, because the trump of God is called the last trump. And so they say, the seventh trump is the last trumpet in the book of Revelation. But again in the book of Revelation there, the trumpets of the seven angels, and the seven angels prepared to sound their seven trumpets. And there is a vast difference between the seventh trumpet, which is declared to be a woe, and that trump of God whereby the church should be called to her reward.

Now this particular verse is one of those compilations where Jesus put together three verses out of the Old Testament; whereby, God has promised that when the return of Christ takes place, and the kingdom is established, that God is again going to take back the Jews as His people, as a nation, and He is going to bring them back in the land, and honor them once more.

And in Deuteronomy chapter thirty, three and four, in that particular promise as the Lord is talking about returning them from their captivity, He said, "and if any of you are driven out to the uttermost parts of heaven, from there will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from there He will fetch you. Notice He will gather together from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, but that heaven if you be scattered, He will gather you from there. Deuteronomy thirty-four.

In Isaiah 27, twelve and thirteen, there the Lord said, again as He is predicting the regathering of the people "oh ye children of Israel", the end of verse twelve, "it shall come to pass in that day that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish, in the land of Assyria, the outcast from the land of Egypt, and they shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem." And so the trumpet, the great trumpet sounding, Jesus makes reference to that.

And then once more in Isaiah chapter eleven, verse twelve. Here they are told to be gathered from the four corners of the earth, or from the four winds, as Jesus makes reference here. "An ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

So it is not at all damaging to the scripture, but only in harmony with the other prophecies, that this be understood to be the elect Jews, not the church.

 

 

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Overall.......

 

 

And then once more in Isaiah chapter eleven, verse twelve. Here they are told to be gathered from the four corners of the earth, or from the four winds, as Jesus makes reference here. "An ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

So it is not at all damaging to the scripture, but only in harmony with the other prophecies, that this be understood to be the elect Jews, not the church.

 

:thumbsup:

 

 

Thanks Spock!!

[Spock]

You are welcome, but like I mentioned, the real credit goes to Chuck Smith for tying all those OT prophecies together nicely so that we may be able to interpret the NT prophecies more effectively.

[ARGOSY]

One more Bible interpretation for all you post tribbies who think the trumpet call in the book of Thessalonians is the 7th trumpet of revelation. Here is an interpretation form the esteemed Chuck Smith. Again, you may not buy it, but at least ponder it. Enjoy.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Mat 24:31).

Now those who take the post-tribulation theory, that Jesus is not going to take the church out until after the Great Tribulation, use this as one of their chief verses to defend their position. For He shall then, after He returns, after the Great Tribulation, He will then send His angels with the sound of a trumpet. The trumpet of God shall sound, "and they shall gather together, His elect from the four winds from one end of the heavens to the other."

Now one thing that they always disregard is that the Bible speaks of that trump by which the church will be caught up to glory, as the trump of God always shall sound; whereas, they confuse that with the seventh trumpet of the book of Revelation, because the trump of God is called the last trump. And so they say, the seventh trump is the last trumpet in the book of Revelation. But again in the book of Revelation there, the trumpets of the seven angels, and the seven angels prepared to sound their seven trumpets. And there is a vast difference between the seventh trumpet, which is declared to be a woe, and that trump of God whereby the church should be called to her reward.

Now this particular verse is one of those compilations where Jesus put together three verses out of the Old Testament; whereby, God has promised that when the return of Christ takes place, and the kingdom is established, that God is again going to take back the Jews as His people, as a nation, and He is going to bring them back in the land, and honor them once more.

And in Deuteronomy chapter thirty, three and four, in that particular promise as the Lord is talking about returning them from their captivity, He said, "and if any of you are driven out to the uttermost parts of heaven, from there will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from there He will fetch you. Notice He will gather together from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, but that heaven if you be scattered, He will gather you from there. Deuteronomy thirty-four.

In Isaiah 27, twelve and thirteen, there the Lord said, again as He is predicting the regathering of the people "oh ye children of Israel", the end of verse twelve, "it shall come to pass in that day that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish, in the land of Assyria, the outcast from the land of Egypt, and they shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem." And so the trumpet, the great trumpet sounding, Jesus makes reference to that.

And then once more in Isaiah chapter eleven, verse twelve. Here they are told to be gathered from the four corners of the earth, or from the four winds, as Jesus makes reference here. "An ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

So it is not at all damaging to the scripture, but only in harmony with the other prophecies, that this be understood to be the elect Jews, not the church.

Spock, you seem like an honest sort. Please read the following letters as if you are in the church while its being read out to the congregation. The last trumpet argument is not the only argument from 1 Corinthians 15. Please see how the main two rapture verses in the bible are variously associated with a definite resurrection, with the second coming, and with the thief in the night and with destruction for the ungodly. Maybe there are two resurrections, but this is a dodgy doctrine because Rev 20 and Daniel 12 only describe one resurrection. Maybe there are two last trumpets, one at the rapture and one at the second coming, but this last trumpet is also associated with a resurrection which adds strength to the second coming/resurrection timing of the last trumpet:

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man. 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

[rollinTHUNDER]

One more Bible interpretation for all you post tribbies who think the trumpet call in the book of Thessalonians is the 7th trumpet of revelation. Here is an interpretation form the esteemed Chuck Smith. Again, you may not buy it, but at least ponder it. Enjoy.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Mat 24:31).

Now those who take the post-tribulation theory, that Jesus is not going to take the church out until after the Great Tribulation, use this as one of their chief verses to defend their position. For He shall then, after He returns, after the Great Tribulation, He will then send His angels with the sound of a trumpet. The trumpet of God shall sound, "and they shall gather together, His elect from the four winds from one end of the heavens to the other."

Now one thing that they always disregard is that the Bible speaks of that trump by which the church will be caught up to glory, as the trump of God always shall sound; whereas, they confuse that with the seventh trumpet of the book of Revelation, because the trump of God is called the last trump. And so they say, the seventh trump is the last trumpet in the book of Revelation. But again in the book of Revelation there, the trumpets of the seven angels, and the seven angels prepared to sound their seven trumpets. And there is a vast difference between the seventh trumpet, which is declared to be a woe, and that trump of God whereby the church should be called to her reward.

Now this particular verse is one of those compilations where Jesus put together three verses out of the Old Testament; whereby, God has promised that when the return of Christ takes place, and the kingdom is established, that God is again going to take back the Jews as His people, as a nation, and He is going to bring them back in the land, and honor them once more.

And in Deuteronomy chapter thirty, three and four, in that particular promise as the Lord is talking about returning them from their captivity, He said, "and if any of you are driven out to the uttermost parts of heaven, from there will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from there He will fetch you. Notice He will gather together from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, but that heaven if you be scattered, He will gather you from there. Deuteronomy thirty-four.

In Isaiah 27, twelve and thirteen, there the Lord said, again as He is predicting the regathering of the people "oh ye children of Israel", the end of verse twelve, "it shall come to pass in that day that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish, in the land of Assyria, the outcast from the land of Egypt, and they shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem." And so the trumpet, the great trumpet sounding, Jesus makes reference to that.

And then once more in Isaiah chapter eleven, verse twelve. Here they are told to be gathered from the four corners of the earth, or from the four winds, as Jesus makes reference here. "An ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

So it is not at all damaging to the scripture, but only in harmony with the other prophecies, that this be understood to be the elect Jews, not the church.

I think he missed it badly, brother.

God will gather His people from the nations to which He scattered them. Gather them back into their promised land. Not from the four winds, which is the meeting in the air/clouds, but from the nations. The nations are not the four winds. This is what happens when people try to explain something they can't understand.

Cheers

[Spock]

Brother Argosy,

You know I have great admiration for your perseverance, but it appears to me at times you seem to want to see more into something that is not there. It's like you want this last trumpet call to fit into your perspective instead of just letting the totality of scripture rule your mind.

People often want to find some profound deep meaning in scripture when often times, the meaning is quite simple. The shofar blowing is pretty common in Jewish worship and is used quite often. Think Rosh Hashanah - the feast of trumpets. My advice, try not to get all hung up with this LAST trumpet call.

[ARGOSY]

Brother Argosy,

You know I have great admiration for your perseverance, but it appears to me at times you seem to want to see more into something that is not there. It's like you want this last trumpet call to fit into your perspective instead of just letting the totality of scripture rule your mind.

I call this nitpicking. People often want to find some profound deep meaning in scripture when often times, the meaning is quite simple. The shofar blowing is pretty common in Jewish worship and is used quite often. Think Rosh Hashanah - the feast of trumpets. My advice, try not to get all hung up with this LAST trumpet call.

Did you seriously read my post? It mainly contains just 3 bible quotes and I specifically avoided focussing on the last trumpet argument. You will see in those quotes that the 1 Corinthians 15 "rapture" is actually a resurrection event.

And you will see that the 1 Thess 4/5 event of a "rapture" and thief in the night is associated with destruction of the ungodly. So the two core "rapture" verses of the pre-trib dotrine actually support a second coming rapture, and that is wihout even touching the "last trumpet" argument.

I am seriously disappointed because the speed with which you replied to my post seriously make me consider if you took the time to meditate on the scriptures for even two minutes. What are these discussions without seriously considering the scriptures?

[Spock]

Just to be clear, Last trumpet= Rosh Hashanah

The rapture will occur during the Jewish Festival of the Feast of the Trumpets.

Both the 1 Corinthians and 1 Thess passages describe the rapture preceded by this "last" trumpet call.