PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

[Guest P_W]

Spock, you mean there are two Enochs???  O, my!  So, to which one did I respond?  

 

Peace, Prair

[Guest]

I am still waiting on someone to explain to me if this is in fact one event then why are the descriptions are so different?

 

I too have questioned this and did some deeper digging.

 

I found that 'come, coming' throughout all of the various descriptions, actually do Not use the same greek root word.

 

The two primary words used are parousia and erchomai, both are used for come/coming.

 

I bet if one sat down and did the translation for each of the 'second coming' scriptures, we would start to be able to see a clearer picture and understanding of the <separate> events.

 

hint: a revealing/presence vs. Coming

 

 

Hint; Why The Descriptions Of The

 

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

 

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

 

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:25-27

 

Two Resurrections

 

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

 

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

 

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:28-29

 

Seem The Same

 

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

 

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

 

And Why

 

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

 

This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:20:4-5

 

I Am So Delighted

 

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

 

To See That All Who Differ

 

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

 

On The Timing Of The First Resurrection

 

And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just. Luke 14:14

 

Still So Passionately Agree On The Resurrection Of The Blessed

 

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. John 6:39

 

Thank You Abba

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Spock]

I will just slip this in here for what it is worth.

I feel 99% certain the rapture is not post trib. In other words, the rapture does not take place at the end of Daniels final week just before Jesus returns to planet earth to set up his millennium kingdom.

I think the pre trib and pre wrath camps have far more solid support than the post tribbies do.

Does this mean anything to anybody? Probably not. Should it mean anything to anybody? Probably not.

But, it's mine, so there. Lol

Okay, now that I got that out of the way, you may resume. Oh, one more thing, if you haven't done so, you should think about reading Rolling Thunders eschatology book with the funny title. What was the name again Thunder? Something like Go your way, Daniel? Good stuff to chew on, even if you don't accept his interpretations or conclusions.

Cheers,

Spock out

===========================================================

The Scriptural evidence for a Pre-Trib Rapture is overwhelming. Welcome aboard Spock!! Tell Dr. McCoy to relax

Hey Enoch, I haven't read this entire thread, but who do the post tribbies believe will be at the sheep and goats judgment if Jesus Raptured the believers just before he returns? It seems to me there would have to be only goats. I speculate they must believe the people who are not believers but also did not take the mark of the beast may be sheep. Is this correct?

[Spock]

I am still waiting on someone to explain to me if this is in fact one event then why are the descriptions are so different?

I too have questioned this and did some deeper digging.

I found that 'come, coming' throughout all of the various descriptions, actually do Not use the same greek root word. The two primary words used are parousia and erchomai, both are used for come/coming. I bet if one sat down and did the translation for each of the 'second coming' scriptures, we would start to be able to see a clearer picture and understanding of the <separate> events.

hint: a revealing/presence vs. Coming

In my 30 years of studying prophecy I have come out with this conclusion based on the totality of scripture reading -I am 90% certain this is not one event, but rather two. Like Lot and Noah, rescue from Gods wrath first, judgment follows.

[ARGOSY]

Hey Enoch, I haven't read this entire thread, but who do the post tribbies believe will be at the sheep and goats judgment if Jesus Raptured the believers just before he returns? It seems to me there would have to be only goats. I speculate they must believe the people who are not believers but also did not take the mark of the beast may be sheep. Is this correct?

I'm not sure what Enoch's answer will be, but I believe they are entire nations

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all NATIONS: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left

[ARGOSY]

Argosy

 

This may clear things a little

 

When does one become "one included in the elect"?  Before the foundations of the world, or at time of belief.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

The word "elect" means something like "chosen". It can be applied to any chosen group of people. Its main bible usage is applied to the church, both Gentiles and Jews. This word is also used rarely to refer to the chosen race, Jews. And it is also used to refer to angels. Here are some examples:

1 Peter 5:13 (NKJV) | In Context | Whole Chapter

13 She who is in Babylon, elect together with you, greets you; and so does Mark my son.

Romans 8:33

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Colossians 3:12

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering

1 Thessalonians 1:4

Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

[ARGOSY]

TO ALL:

Everyone is off-topic. Please can a pre-tribber attempt to answer the questions in the opening post:

1) 2 Thessalonians 1 states that believers who are persecuted get their relief at the second coming, not at an earlier rapture.

2) 2 Thessalonians 2 states that we will be gathered AFTER the revealing of the antichrist, yet pre-tribbers believe we will be gathered before the tribulation.

What say you on these two verses. Please do not change the subject when answering these questions, just explain what you believe those verses mean.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

I will just slip this in here for what it is worth.

I feel 99% certain the rapture is not post trib. In other words, the rapture does not take place at the end of Daniels final week just before Jesus returns to planet earth to set up his millennium kingdom.

I think the pre trib and pre wrath camps have far more solid support than the post tribbies do.

Does this mean anything to anybody? Probably not. Should it mean anything to anybody? Probably not.

But, it's mine, so there. Lol

Okay, now that I got that out of the way, you may resume. Oh, one more thing, if you haven't done so, you should think about reading Rolling Thunders eschatology book with the funny title. What was the name again Thunder? Something like Go your way, Daniel? Good stuff to chew on, even if you don't accept his interpretations or conclusions.

Cheers,

Spock out

===========================================================

The Scriptural evidence for a Pre-Trib Rapture is overwhelming. Welcome aboard Spock!! Tell Dr. McCoy to relax

Hey Enoch, I haven't read this entire thread, but who do the post tribbies believe will be at the sheep and goats judgment if Jesus Raptured the believers just before he returns? It seems to me there would have to be only goats. I speculate they must believe the people who are not believers but also did not take the mark of the beast may be sheep. Is this correct?

 

 

 

 

 

Hey Spock,

 

Did you read this: ?

 

 

Don't know what anyone thinks that's why I posted the Passages in TOTO.

 

From the strange reaction of the Sheep and the subsequent answer from the LORD, its quite apparent they helped either the Tribulation Saints or the 144,000... or Both.

 

 

Off the Sheep and Goats for a minute, Check this....

 

Compare and Contrast Daniels "little horn" in Chapter 7:

 

(Daniel 7:21) "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;"

 

(Revelation 13:7) "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

 

(Matthew 16:18) " And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

 

Look @ this..... Daniels "little horn" (anti-christ) prevails against the saints and lines up perfectly with Rev 13:7.......BUT look @ what Jesus said concerning The Church in Matthew!!

 

Those saints that are being "OVERCOME" in Rev 13:7 by the beast can't be the Church; why?  Christ said so!!

 

See it?

[ARGOSY]

 

 

========================================================================

 

 

for example in Revelation 6 we see that some believers have already been killed, and they are to wait longer for more to be killed before the judgment.

 

That's Incorrect. They are the Martyrs that died for the WORD of GOD from the 1st Century until then....They are told to wait for the others to be killed (Tribulation Saints):

 

They "Martyrs" didn't die during The Great Tribulation....it just started with the Seals in Rev 6:1.  The Martyrs Cried, "How LONG" does thou not judge. (See: Below).  And the "HOW LONG" is nonsensical if they were just killed.

 

(Revelation 6:9) "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

 

(Revelation 6:10-11) "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?  {11} And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

 

 

They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

 

These are the 144,000 Jews sir. 

 

(Revelation 7:3-4) "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.  {4} And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

 

 

so there is actually a big problem with a doctrine that has zero scriptural support.

 

Preposterous!!  There's a METRIC TON of Scriptural Support I've provided here and other threads under this heading.

 

On the contrary verses like Daniel 7:25, Rev 13:7 indicate a FULL 3.5 years of persecution of the saints.

 

You continue to equivocate "Persecution" with The GREAT TRIBULATION.  Why is that?

 

What is the Purpose of The Great Tribulation sir?

 

 

This is not limited to the end of the tribulation, but encompasses the whole tribulation.

 

And again!  But here your Equivocating "tribulation" (Little "t") with...... I don't know what.

 

The Great Tribulation is 42 Months/1260 Days/ a Time, Times, and a Dividing of Time;  and begins with the Abomination of Desolation.  This "TRIBULATION" is sourced by the ALMIGHTY GOD.

Whenever I show you scriptures that prove that there is persecution for the saints during the 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation you say I am equivocating. There will be both tribulation and persecutions during the same period: Daniel 7 describes the last 3.5 years as follows:

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

What is your opinion of Daniel 7:25-27?

[ARGOSY]

I will just slip this in here for what it is worth.

I feel 99% certain the rapture is not post trib. In other words, the rapture does not take place at the end of Daniels final week just before Jesus returns to planet earth to set up his millennium kingdom.

I think the pre trib and pre wrath camps have far more solid support than the post tribbies do.

Does this mean anything to anybody? Probably not. Should it mean anything to anybody? Probably not.

But, it's mine, so there. Lol

Okay, now that I got that out of the way, you may resume. Oh, one more thing, if you haven't done so, you should think about reading Rolling Thunders eschatology book with the funny title. What was the name again Thunder? Something like Go your way, Daniel? Good stuff to chew on, even if you don't accept his interpretations or conclusions.

Cheers,

Spock out

===========================================================

The Scriptural evidence for a Pre-Trib Rapture is overwhelming. Welcome aboard Spock!! Tell Dr. McCoy to relax

Hey Enoch, I haven't read this entire thread, but who do the post tribbies believe will be at the sheep and goats judgment if Jesus Raptured the believers just before he returns? It seems to me there would have to be only goats. I speculate they must believe the people who are not believers but also did not take the mark of the beast may be sheep. Is this correct?

 

 

 

 

Hey Spock,

 

Did you read this: ?

 

 

Don't know what anyone thinks that's why I posted the Passages in TOTO.

 

From the strange reaction of the Sheep and the subsequent answer from the LORD, its quite apparent they helped either the Tribulation Saints or the 144,000... or Both.

 

 

Off the Sheep and Goats for a minute, Check this....

 

Compare and Contrast Daniels "little horn" in Chapter 7:

 

(Daniel 7:21) "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;"

 

(Revelation 13:7) "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

 

(Matthew 16:18) " And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

 

Look @ this..... Daniels "little horn" (anti-christ) prevails against the saints and lines up perfectly with Rev 13:7.......BUT look @ what Jesus said concerning The Church in Matthew!!

 

Those saints that are being "OVERCOME" in Rev 13:7 by the beast can't be the Church; why?  Christ said so!!

 

See it?

You seem to be equating the beast with the gates of hell. Where is your scriptural evidence for this? Please post it..

To me the gates of hell are referring to a person's soul, God will prevail.

But regarding death and martyrdom these have always occurred in the church, and we are to expect persecutions so its possible for someone to conquer our bodies (eg the beast) but impossible for anything like the gates of hell to conquer our souls.