The Christian church (and) Israel

[Guest]

How many Jewish people have gone to hell in the past 2000 years because they weren't born again.

 

If God made this blood covenant and restoring in the future, then why aren't all Jewish people born again.

 

What exactly is God restoring if some are still going to hell.

 

 

Over the Past Two Thousand Years How Many Jews

 

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

 

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

 

But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

 

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Romans 11:15

 

Were Restored To Their Messiah

 

~

 

Gentiles

 

Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

 

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

 

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. John 4:20-22

 

Are The Reason

 

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

 

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

 

If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. Romans 11:11-14

 

And This Gentile (Among Many) Still Weeps For The Beloved

 

Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 31:20

 

The Jew

 

Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. Romans 12:15

 

~

 

Hint: As I Read It, The Salvation Of All Israel Will Be At The First Resurrection (The Rapture)

 

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? Romans 11:15

 

And Now You

 

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Jude 1:14

 

Know

 

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

 

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

 

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

 

And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

 

The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

 

All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. Zechariah 12:9-14

 

~

 

And Exactly What Is God Restoring?

 

The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

 

Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.

 

The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

 

In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

 

The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:13-17

 

His Joy~!

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest DRS81]

The faith of Abraham was accounted to him as righteousness. Even John the Baptist was not seemingly born again, evev though he had been filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother's womb. He called himself a friend of the Bridegroom, but was not a part of the Bride of Christ which came into existance at pentacost..

 

Yeah but you're missing one thing. Holy Spirit baptism and the seal of salvation wasn't accounted for until after the resurrection. Abraham and John lived before the resurrection. The Jewish people in Israel in 2014 are living after the resurrection, so they also must be born again to see the kingdom of God. At least, that's my conclusion.

[Atwood]

I said: "The Abrahamic Covenant (involving blood indeed) has a general provision that through Abe's seed all of the nations of the world would be blessed. But that does not guarantee a new birth for everyone."

The question came back:

"I don't understand something. Why would God bless certain men or families on this old earth but not bring them to salvation in the end. What's the point of that, blessing Israel but not saving them or some."

My friend, you don't understand something. LOL. I don't understand many things! As the old hymn says, "I give up myself and whatever I know, now wash me and I shall be whiter than snow."

We see through a glass darkly.

"Why would God" -- my dogs may as well bark to each other asking why I do 90 percent of what they see me doing. They haven't a clue. God's ways are past our finding out.

But God is loving, gracious, and just. He did not wipe out the whole human race when Adam sinned. He is the Savior of all men, specially of those who believe. All get a measure of salvation to common blessings of life -- the rain falls on the just and the unjust. He lets unsaved men have pleasures. The point is that God loves all. He gave His Son for all; Christ suffered to pay for the sins of all men. But man has this responsibility to believe. Behold, He stands at the door and knocks; of any man hears His voice and opens the door, He will come in. He offers salvation as a free gift. However, men have the ability to choose to refuse the gift.

Consider Romans 2: "3 And do you reckon this, O man, who judges them who practice such things, and do the same, that you shall escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that

THE GOODNESS OF GOD LEADS YOU TO REPENTENCE?

But after your hardness and impenitent heart do you treasure up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; . . . ?"

Whose behavior is shocking? That of the Lord or that of the human rejecter of His grace?

Edited April 14, 2014 by Atwood

[Willa]

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seaks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8. God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear to this very day.

11. I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

15. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

17 And if some of the braches (of the olive tree) were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches--.

20 Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

23--They also, if they do not continue in unbelief,will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

25-- Blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,

31. Even so these also have been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.

32. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

I believe the "time of the gentiles" is soon coming to an end. The gospel is being spread widely as are Bibles being distributed. But many more are needed. We see that fewer of us gentiles in Europe and the Americas are receiving Christ and more are believing fables, and new age, and churches are just not adhering to Scripture. Yet more people of Jewish heritage are turning to Christ. While most Jews today are in fact athiests [even of those who live in Israel], there are growing numbers receiving Christ both here and in Israel. Some are on our forums. I am blest to see people on Worthy from Hebrew backgrounds or ancestry, as well as from such nations as China and india. But I am grieved to see our nation turning from godliness to fables, cults and false religions in the USA. And I believe that the Koran is a threat to the world. It is hard for me to comprehend that the love of God in Christ Jesus should be rejected in favor of such evil and deception. So perhaps the partial blindness and hardness is now coming upon the Gentiles. And even though i know and understand what the Bible is saying here, and understand that it was the rejection of Christ at His first coming that caused the Jews so much heartache at the hands of evil men, it is still difficult to grasp the kindness and severity of God in v. 22. I guess it is so that we all should rely solely on His grace through His gift of faith, and recognize that no ancestor such as Abraham or self effort to be worthy of heaven will afford us anything. The only way is through the covenant of grace ratified by the blood of the Messiah.

[Qnts2]

 

The Abrahamic Covenant (involving blood indeed) has a general provision that through Abe's seed all of the nations of the world would be blessed. But that does not guarantee a new birth for everyone.

 

I don't understand something. Why would God bless certain men or families on this old earth but not bring them to salvation in the end. What's the point of that, blessing Israel but not saving them or some.

 

 

In the end times, all children of Israel who are alive, will see Jesus return and fulfill the last of the OT prophesies, and believe that He is Messiah Lord and Savior. Why aren't all of the children of Israel saved throughout history? Well, if they were, salvation for Israel would be by linage and not faith alone. In the NT, scripture is emphasized to the Jewish people that linage is not what qualifies a person for entry into the New Covenant. Just as the lack of linage (gentiles) does not mean a Gentile is excluded from the Messianic promise. Both are saved the same way, by faith in Jesus completed work. So, the way to salvation is the same whether Jew or Gentile, male or female, bond or free.

 

Why was Israel blessed, (and at times cursed)? To show the world that the God of Israel is the one and only true God.    

[Willa]

Israel was to be the bride of God the Father, but she kept seeking to worship other gods--spiritual adultry. However, Israel was chosen to bear God's Son in human flesh, and was promised the land as her inheritance. It is promised in Romans that she will again come into God's favor and grace and receive their promised Messiah.

Jesus is the Father's heir. But we, the church, are betrothed to the Christ. This is more like being married but the marriage is not yet celebrated and consumated. It is much more than an engagement because the bride is already purchased and the groom has gone to prepare a home for her. When the Father approves, Christ will return unannounced to snatch her away and take her home. Then there will be a celebration.

It is promised that since we are adopted as sons, we will be coheirs with Christ. We will reign and rule with Him as kings and priests. But priests do not inherit the land. The Jews have been promised a land whose borders have never been fully obtained, but will occur in the future.

I have run into this before but am not really sure what it is called or where from Scripture it is gotten--you are suggesting that the physical domain promised to Abraham and obtained by David but lost by Solomon will one day restored to the Jews as a nation, correct?

clb

I onlly know that God is incapable of lieing. So if the full inheritance has not been fully realized to date, it will be in the future. The gifts and promises of God are without recall. In the same way, there are many prophesies that have yet to come to pass, but will take place in the future. I interpret God's word litterally unless it is stated otherwise and an interpretation is given. Scripture interprets scripture. It is not bound by my understanding or lack there of.

[Willa]

The faith of Abraham was accounted to him as righteousness. Even John the Baptist was not seemingly born again, evev though he had been filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother's womb. He called himself a friend of the Bridegroom, but was not a part of the Bride of Christ which came into existance at pentacost..

 

Yeah but you're missing one thing. Holy Spirit baptism and the seal of salvation wasn't accounted for until after the resurrection. Abraham and John lived before the resurrection. The Jewish people in Israel in 2014 are living after the resurrection, so they also must be born again to see the kingdom of God. At least, that's my conclusion.

I thought that is what I said. Sorry I didn't explain myself fully and clearly.

[Guest DRS81]

 ..

 

I have a new question. If Christianity and Jesus Christ are the only way to the Father, then why is the upbringing of Jesus based on Jewish and Judaism roots and not Christian roots. If Judaism is wrong and Christianity is right, then why is God's promised land based on the wrong religion when discussing salvation. Like why does Judaism exist if the religion doesn't point you to the Father? Why does Judaism exist kinda thing? If Christianity and salvation is based on having a relationship with Jesus then why does Judaism exist?

 

(John Hagee wrote in his book......"Every person reading this book has been blessed by the contributions that the Jewish people have given to the world. As we have stated, the Jewish people have given us the Bible, the patriarchs, the first family of Christianity, and the apostles. Christianity cannot explain its existence without Judaism. That's why our faith is referred as the Judeo-Christian faith. Our roots are found in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." - From the book, Four Blood Moons Pg 195.)

 

If this is so, then I must be missing something. Does Judaism also teach John 14:6? I'm also gonna be reading up more on the Jewish holidays and religion so I can cover my basis.

[Qnts2]

 

 ..

 

I have a new question. If Christianity and Jesus Christ are the only way to the Father, then why is the upbringing of Jesus based on Jewish and Judaism roots and not Christian roots. If Judaism is wrong and Christianity is right, then why is God's promised land based on the wrong religion when discussing salvation. Like why does Judaism exist if the religion doesn't point you to the Father? Why does Judaism exist kinda thing? If Christianity and salvation is based on having a relationship with Jesus then why does Judaism exist?

 

(John Hagee wrote in his book......"Every person reading this book has been blessed by the contributions that the Jewish people have given to the world. As we have stated, the Jewish people have given us the Bible, the patriarchs, the first family of Christianity, and the apostles. Christianity cannot explain its existence without Judaism. That's why our faith is referred as the Judeo-Christian faith. Our roots are found in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." - From the book, Four Blood Moons Pg 195.)

 

If this is so, then I must be missing something. Does Judaism also teach John 14:6? I'm also gonna be reading up more on the Jewish holidays and religion so I can cover my basis.

 

 

This is a generalized and quick overview.

 

The OT is the words of God. The OT gives the history and the plans of God. The history includes the fall of man. How it happened along with why humans need a savior. In Genesis we find the very first promise of a future Messiah, just 3 short chapters into the book. Man had sinned and God was giving the judgement for the sin, but along with this judgement was a future promise of the Messiah.

 

Genesis 3:15 ¹⁵ And I will put enmity

Between you and the woman,

And between your seed and her seed;

He shall ^[d]bruise you on the head,

And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

 

So, the serpent is told that in the future, there will be a seed from woman, who will bruise the head of the serpent. Throughout the OT, people failed and fell into sin, but each time, along with the judgement, God always gave hope of a future promise. This hope and these promises are about the Messiah. After the flood, God told Noah that Shem will be blessed.

 

Genesis 9:“Blessed be the Lord,

The God of Shem;

 

So, out of the 3 brothers, the blessing goes to Shem. Abraham was of the line of Shem. And the promise to Abraham was that all of the people would be blessed through His linage. Abraham had 2 sons, but the promise goes to the younger son, Isaac. Isaac had two sons, and the promise went to Jacob, the youngest. From Jacob, there are no further separations, as all descendents of Jacob are the people God chose to use to fulfill the promise which began in Genesis 3. While the children of Jacob/Israel are the chosen people, within that people, prophesy is given which narrows down the linage of the Messiah being thru Judah, to David.

 

Now, the children of Israel are chosen to be the linage of the Messiah, prophesied throughout the OT. And to be a people who will show to others, who the true God is. Along with the blessings promised to the children of Israel, is that God will not abandon them.

 

Now for the Mosaic law, which is what Judaism is based on. The Mosaic law is to show sin, but it had other purposes. It kept the Jewish people separate from the surrounding people, pointed them to God and His Messiah. So, the Jewish people were to obey the Mosaic law in the Mosaic covenant, which pointed to sin, kept the people separate from the surrounding people, gave them instructions on how to be obedient to God, provided a sacrifice for their sins on a temporary basis, pointed to the Messiah and showed the surrounding people who the true God is.

 

When the Messiah came, He brought the New Covenant which is different from the Mosaic covenant but according to Gods plan and prophesy, the Messiah would attract the Gentiles to Himself. God knew the children of Israel as a people group, would not accept the Messiah at first. These Gentiles who came to the Messiah would receive many blessings and would make the children of Israel jealous. Until the children of Israel recognized the Messiah, they were bound to the Mosaic covenant and law for their entire lives and for all their generations.

 

Judaism based on the Mosaic covenant is biblical, but does not offer eternal salvation. Jesus death and resurrection opened the way for the children of Israel to accept the New Covenant and some did, but God already knew as a group, they would not recognize Jesus as Messiah until He returned and fulfilled additional prophesies. So Christianity rooted in the OT prophesies and plans, but right now is mainly comprised of Gentiles. The Gentiles who are Christians, under the New Covenant are to share the gospel with the Jewish people who are under the Mosaic covenant, and to live for God, praising Him for His blessings, to bring attention to Jesus. In the future, the Jewish people will realize that Jesus is the promised Messiah and believe in Him, accepting the New Covenant.       

[Atwood]

You present new questions:

"I have a new question. If Christianity and Jesus Christ are the only way to the Father, then why is the upbringing of Jesus based on Jewish and Judaism roots and not Christian roots."

How do you know what the roots of his upbringing are? He was raised under the Law of Moses which was in force during His ife; He fulfilled the law and nailed it to the cross. You speak of "Judaism." It was the Law of Moses. What do you mean by "Judaism"? The term does not occur in the OT (Tanach) to my knowledge. If you mean the religion of the Talmud; the Talmud came much later. As to the Traditions of the Fathers, He rejected those and followed the Law of Moses. If you mean "Talmudic Judaism," there is no evidence that the Lord Jesus was rooted in that.

You ask: "If Judaism is wrong and Christianity is right, then why is God's promised land based on the wrong religion when discussing salvation. "

Again, you continue with "Judaism." Talmudic Judaism is a new religion; not that of Moses. Talmudic Judaism is the relgion of those who reject the Lord Jesus as Messiah. You may read the Talmud to see how foreign it is to the Tanach (OT).

Actually your sentence which combines the promised and with salvation, makes no sense to me. The promised land is based on God's promises to Israel under the Abrahamic and Palestinian Covenants. This has little to do with the Church or with salvation from sin, though both are based on Christ's sacrifice for sin.

"I have a new question. If Christianity and Jesus Christ are the only way to the Father, then why is the upbringing of Jesus based on Jewish and Judaism roots and not Christian roots. If Judaism is wrong and Christianity is right, then why is God's promised land based on the wrong religion when discussing salvation. Like why does Judaism exist if the religion doesn't point you to the Father? Why does Judaism exist kinda thing? If Christianity and salvation is based on having a relationship with Jesus then why does Judaism exist?

You ask "Like why does Judaism exist if the religion doesn't point you to the Father? Why does Judaism exist kinda thing?" The fact that some religion exists does not prove that it points you to the Father. The religion of satan exists, but doesn't point you to the Father. Modern Judaism is a religion of those who have rejected God and His Word. It does not point to God at all.

Why does Judaism exist? satan has many varieties of religion; thus Judaism is just one of them. "You are of your father the Devil," thus spoke the Lord Jesus.

Nobody is practicing the Religion of Moses. It is impossible with no Temple. And neither should anyone follow that religion since it ended at the cross. The Jewish nation is another matter; it has not ended and has a future in the Bible.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Atwood