Evolutionist Professor Goes Ballistic

[Tolken]

Shiloh357 - God is the agent of creation. He is not telling the earth to create.  God is doing the creating.  Evidently you are unwilling to accept that important truth.  You are perverting the Scriptures.

 

God speaks into existence all that is.  That isn't Evolution, its creation.

 

I am not trying to get around God's commandments.  Where does that come from.

 

Yes, to some degree you certainly are...God commands the land/water (yes, I'm a broken record because simply put that is exactly what scripture states...plainly)  God's commands are the sole and only operative agent of creation. All that I am pointing out is that in various verses God's commands/fiats are clearly directed, and they are directed to empower through agency thus "Let the land/water/etc.   Where does God directly command the creation of vegetation, fish, birds, animals, etc., He doesn't but He does command various sources...therefore the bible states mediate creation.  How is what I've stated contradictory to scripture?

 

Further, my use of evolution in no way supports abiogenesis or any definition of the term that would eliminate God, thus I prefer God ordained processes. Unless one can show where "Let the land/water/etc." is not a command to a process then the interpretation based on a number of sources stands from my perspective. Other then dismissing the "four words" please show where this is reading into Genesis? A simpler question - Does God command the land/water/etc. to produce, or not? 

[LouF95]

 

I know exactly what you mean.  By the way.  You made an outrageous claim about Rashi.  My Jewish friends find it offensive.  Show me definitive proof he or any other Jewish person tampered with Isaiah.

 

So as I assumed, you don't really know anything.  You're just parroting what you are told  to say. 

 

Your Jewish "friend"  can be offended all he wants.  I didn't say that RASHI tampered with Isaiah. I said that the Rabbis re-interpreted Isaiah and other Messianic prophecies in order to "write" the Messiah out of those passages.  The notion that Isaiah 53 speaks of Israel finds its origin from RASHI  They did the same type of thing to other Messianic prophecies. They simply offered "new" interpretations of Messianic prophecies and changed meaning of the passage so that Jews would not be led to believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

 

 

Also, let's get back to Yom Kippur.  What happened to the goat after the priest finished putting his hands on the goat?  There was a second goat.  Why was he sacrificed?  It was for the sin of defiling the temple, one of the special situations besides covering unintentional sins and this goat didn't take the punishment in place of the sinner.

 

What if someone stole someone's camel?  What would the sinner have to do according to Mosaic sacrificial law?

 

Interesting...   Now for some truth on the matter. 

 

"Now on the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. It shall be for you a time of holy convocation, and you shall afflict yourselves and present a food offering to the LORD. And you shall not do any work on that very day, for it is a Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.

(Lev 23:27-28)

 

"And it shall be a statute to you forever that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict yourselves and shall do no work, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you. For on this day shall atonement be made for you to cleanse you. You shall be clean before the LORD from all your sins.

(Lev 16:29-30)

 

Yes, there was an atonement made for the sanctuary.   But as you can see above, that is not the ONLY atonement made above.  And again, since Hebrews 9 and 10 are a commentary of Yom Kippur in the light of Jesus' sacrifice, I re-submit the following passage as further confirmation that Jesus as the Yom Kippur sin offering made atonement for our sins on our behalf.

 

And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

(Heb 10:10-14)

 

 

My contention is there is no such thing as substitutionary atonement in Mosaic law.  There is a big difference between atonement and substitutionary atonement.  Since there is no indication in the OT of substitutionary atonement and since God forgave the Isrealites numerous times without requiring a sacrifice and since animal sacrifice was primarily for unintentional sins, the concept of Jesus having to substitute for us or taking the punishment we deserve is on shaky ground.  Whoever wrote Hebrews was probably not a Torah observant Jew.  Why should his commentary trump the Torah?  He offered his interpretation as the the meaning of Jesus's death.  I don't see Hebrews 10:10-14 making any definitive statement that Jesus's death was substitutionary.  He could have meant to say whatever you think separates you from God, Jesus removed it. Just a possibility.

 

Here is how someone attains forgiveness for the sin of stealing someone's camel:

 

1) Repent

2) Have remorse

3) Give the victim 5 animals for every animal stolen

4) Ask forgiveness from the victim.

 

No animal sacrifice was necessary.

 

You know the first goat on Yom Kippur was released into the wilderness.  He was only killed if he came back(the villagers didn't want the goat to bring the sins back to the village)

[MorningGlory]

This thread has gone so far off topic that I'm wondering if it's possible to get back to "Evolutionist Professor Goes Ballistic". 

[Guest shiloh357]

My contention is there is no such thing as substitutionary atonement in Mosaic law. 

 

Yes, and the verses above where something makes atonement "for you" in Lev. 23:27-28 and Lev. 16:29:30 demonstrates a substitutionary atonement.   If I pay your bill "for you,"  I am paying your debt on your behalf.  You owed it but I paid for you.  I paid it as your substitute.  That is what is happening in animal sacrifices.  

 

The substitutionary sacrifice for sin is the heart of the sacrificial system.   Even in Isaiah 53:5, it says, "He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities..."    That is substitution.  There is no way around that.   When I stand in someone else's place and doing what they should have done, I am a substitute.

 

Jesus died in OUR place and he died for OUR sins.    Paul tells us in Col. 2:14 that Jesus paid for our sins by taking away the "handwriting" that was against us.  Our sins were nailed to Jesus' cross and

 

There is a big difference between atonement and substitutionary atonement. 

 

That is a false dichotomy.  The only times when atonement was not substitutionary is when atonement was made for inanimate objects, like the altar or the tent of meeting, etc. 

 

Atonement for sin was ALWAYS substitutionary.

 

Since there is no indication in the OT of substitutionary atonement and since God forgave the Isrealites numerous times without requiring a sacrifice and since animal sacrifice was primarily for unintentional sins, the concept of Jesus having to substitute for us or taking the punishment we deserve is on shaky ground.

 

There is plenty of evidence of substitutionary atonement.  You are simply not being honest about the text.   As for unintentional sins....   You are forgetting  something.  There were two kinds of "sin offerings"  one is the sin offering. But there was also the guilt offering, the asham. 

 

The difference between the sin offering and the guilt offering is that the sin offering was for the root cause of sin.  The guilt offering deals with the fruit of sin and covers intentional sins and unintentional sins.   Isaiah 5310 says that Jesus, the suffering servant is our guilt offering thus his sacrifice of himself deals with both our unintentional sins and our intentional sins.  

 

The New Testament tells us over and over that Jesus died in our place and paid the sin debt that we owed.  To say that Jesus didn't do that or to claim that such claim is not made about Jesus is nothing short of intellectual suicide in the presence of overwhelming biblical witnesses in the New Testament.

 

Whoever wrote Hebrews was probably not a Torah observant Jew.  Why should his commentary trump the Torah?

 

 

Actually he was.  Only a Torah observant person would know that the golden altar of incense was behind the curtain in the Holy of Holies only once a year on the Day of Atonement.  That little detail would escape someone else.

 

He offered his interpretation as the the meaning of Jesus's death.  I don't see Hebrews 10:10-14 making any definitive statement that Jesus's death was substitutionary.  He could have meant to say whatever you think separates you from God, Jesus removed it. Just a possibility.

 

 

 

Whoever wrote Hebrews was probably not a Torah observant Jew.  Why should his commentary trump the Torah?  He offered his interpretation as the the meaning of Jesus's death.  I don't see Hebrews 10:10-14 making any definitive statement that Jesus's death was substitutionary.  He could have meant to say whatever you think separates you from God, Jesus removed it. Just a possibility.

 

 

Here is how someone attains forgiveness for the sin of stealing someone's camel:

 

1) Repent

2) Have remorse

3) Give the victim 5 animals for every animal stolen

4) Ask forgiveness from the victim.

 

No animal sacrifice was necessary.

Actually when one stole something from another person, the Torah requires a guilt offering after you have made peace and restored what was stolen to the other person.  Even Jesus taught that.  So you are also wrong about that.

 

The guilt and sin offerings took care  of both the sin you committed either intentionally or unintentionally and the results of the sins you committed as well.  So you are basically wrong.

 

You know the first goat on Yom Kippur was released into the wilderness.  He was only killed if he came back(the villagers didn't want the goat to bring the sins back to the village)

 

 

That was the Azazel.  The other goat was killed on behalf of all of the people. It made atonement on their behalf for all of their sins.  Jesus was typified in both goats.  The goat that was slain and the goat that bore the sins of the people away.

 

One of the best pictures of a substitutionary sacrifice is in the story of the binding of Isaac and how God spared Isaac and allowed Abraham to sacrifice a ram in Isaac's place. (Gen. 21)

[Guest]

This thread has gone so far off topic that I'm wondering if it's possible to get back to "Evolutionist Professor Goes Ballistic". 

 

 

Even The Raging Pagan

 

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

 

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Romans 14:11-12

 

Will Point To Jesus In The End

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John 1:1-5

[Hippie333]

Shalom Gang!

I am afraid we are going to either get this thread back on topic, or it's going to have to be locked. It's going into too many directions to split it into different categories. Please feel free to start another Thread on the Forums if you wish to continue on these other subjects.

 

 

Thanks in ahead, and God Bless,

Hip

[Guest shiloh357]

I will start another thread on substitutionary sacrifice/atonement

 

Edited to add:   New thread started here>>> 

[Guest]

By His WORD

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

The same was in the beginning with God.

 

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1-3

 

He Made It So

 

By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God,

 

so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. Hebrews 11:3 (ESV)

 

~

 

Evolutionist Professor Goes Ballistic

 

....The evangelist reportedly stated, “[The professor] asked me if I had accepted Darwin as my lord and savior.” Professor Boster shouted profanities at the evangelist and then led a group of students in shouting, “Praise Darwin!”

 

http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2014/05/20/evolutionist-professor-goes-ballistic/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+KenHam+%28Around+the+World+with+Ken+Ham%29

 

~

 

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 1 Timothy 6:20

 

~

 

....God's commands are the sole and only operative agent of creation.

 

All that I am pointing out is that in various verses God's commands/fiats are clearly directed, and they are directed to empower through agency thus "Let the land/water/etc.

 

~

 

His Word

 

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind:

 

and it was so. Genesis 1:24

 

Is The Agent Of Power

 

Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

 

“Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge?

 

Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.

 

“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand.

 

Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?

 

On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone—

 

while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? Job 38:1-7 (NIV)

 

In Man's Words

 

Then Job replied to the Lord:

 

"I know that you can do anything, and no one can stop you.

 

You asked, ‘Who is this that questions my wisdom with such ignorance?’

 

It is I—and I was talking about things I knew nothing about, things far too wonderful for me. Job 42:1-3 (NLT)

 

Is Foolishness

 

~

 

....Where does God directly command the creation of vegetation, fish, birds, animals, etc., He doesn't but He does command various sources...therefore the bible states mediate creation.  How is what I've stated contradictory to scripture....

 

~

 

His Word

 

And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: Genesis 1:11(a-f)

 

Is The Agent Of Power

 

and it was so. Genesis 1:11(g)

 

In Man's Words

 

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)

 

Is Foolishness

 

~

 

....my use of evolution in no way supports abiogenesis or any definition of the term that would eliminate God, thus I prefer God ordained processes....

 

~

 

His Word

 

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, Isaiah 55:11(a-b)

 

Is The Agent Of Power

 

but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:11 (c-d)

 

In Man's Words

 

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (ESV)

 

Is Foolishness

 

~

 

....Unless one can show where "Let the land/water/etc." is not a command to a process then the interpretation based on a number of sources stands from my perspective....

 

~

 

His Word

 

And God said, Let there be light: Genesis 1:3(a-b)

 

Is The Agent Of Power

 

and there was light. Genesis 1:3(c )

 

In Man's Words

 

"What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator. Does a clay pot argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying, 'Stop, you're doing it wrong!' Does the pot exclaim, 'How clumsy can you be?' Isaiah 45:9 (NLT)

 

Is Foolishness

 

~

 

 

....Other then dismissing the "four words" please show where this is reading into Genesis? A simpler question - Does God command the land/water/etc. to produce, or not...? 

 

~

 

In His Word

 

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

 

Is Power

 

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:31

 

In Man's Words

 

How foolish can you be? He is the Potter, and he is certainly greater than you, the clay! Should the created thing say of the one who made it, "He didn't make me"? Does a jar ever say, "The potter who made me is stupid"? Isaiah 29:16 (NLT)

 

Is Foolishness

 

~

 

Beloved, Don't Let Evil

 

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

 

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

 

And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Revelation 5:11-13

 

Rob You Of Your Birth Right

 

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Tolken]

Cobalt1959 - It is also telling that you completely avoid the question as to whether man himself was part of this "process."

 

As this is not the thread to discuss I would look forward to discussion on another thread.  I will only note that neither you nor Shiloh addressed those 4 words other than to suggest they didn't mean what they say?  I will address man when someone addresses those 4 words, as I previously stated.

[Guest shiloh357]

Cobalt1959 - It is also telling that you completely avoid the question as to whether man himself was part of this "process."

 

As this is not the thread to discuss I would look forward to discussion on another thread.  I will only note that neither you nor Shiloh addressed those 4 words other than to suggest they didn't mean what they say?  I will address man when someone addresses those 4 words, as I previously stated.

We have addressed those four words and they don't mean what you say the mean.  That has been how we have been addressing them consistently.   you can't answer the question about man because you can't find a way to reconcile Evolution with what the  Bible  says about creation.  You have been avoiding that issue every time it is brought up in other threads as well.  So I am surprised that you are grasping for any excuse you can find to not address it here.