Willa Posted May 30, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,654 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 30, 2014 Purity and modesty are a manner of life, which are reflected by the way we dress. This modestly might include a desire to not draw attention to ones self or not be ostentatious. It is also to be seemly and appropriate to the situation. So if a group of people go to a water park... The women/girls are wearing swim suits at the water park. And a few women decide to wear long dresses down to their ankles and t-shirts are they being modest? If they remain as spectators it would be appropriate to cover skin against sunburn. Should they attempt to swim in that attire, long skirts would be very cumbersome if not dangerous, so they would be inappropriate, and wet tee shirts with nothing under them are not modest. Often women who want to be more modest than the swim suits we usually find on the market will wear longer burmuda length cut off jeans and a tee shirt over a swim suit. That would seem more appropriate. The type of suit a woman should wear is really a matter of conviction and preference. We only have the guideline of being modest and seemly or appropriate. But we have no right to stand in judgement of others---Unbelievers especially but also believers, because they answer to God in these matters as do we. Often our convictions and preferences change with time and even climate. God's word does not change. I still do not understand that Eve could be saved through childbearing, unless it was proheticaly pointing to the coming Christ Child Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted May 30, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 30, 2014 I still do not understand that Eve could be saved through childbearing, unless it was proheticaly pointing to the coming Christ Child Bingo! Pointing to Mary. At least that's what I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clark thompson Posted May 30, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 41 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 154 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 31 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/13/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/12/1986 Share Posted May 30, 2014 It is so easy to try to have others follow our personal conviction but we should not do this but with biblical truth we should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted May 30, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,654 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 30, 2014 I don't think that passage was an all encompassing list of rules for gentiles. If it was, then it would mean that those few things are more important than all other laws, and the gentiles still must keep certain laws to be saved. I think that what he was saying is that the gentiles are not required to keep the ceremonial laws and the laws of separation. The question is, would keeping the Sabbath be one of those laws that doesn't apply to the gentiles. I personally think that the Sabbath law that said nobody could work on Saturday was symbolic of the rest we would now enter into when we cast our burdens on Jesus and enter into his rest. That is how I interpret the Sabbath teachings in Hebrews. There are others that interpret the same passage to mean we must all keep the Saturday Sabbath. My main point is that we all have different views of what are salvation issues. Lets look at the passage your brought up. I could take that passage and say that if someone is hungry, and eats meat that died through strangulation, they lose their salvation. If we take it as all the gentiles need be concerned with, they could steal and remain saved because it wasn't one of the big three. You have to take this in light of the entire Bible. For once I almost agree with you as to what the sabbath rest is. I just believe it is more than that. To cease from our own labors to me is also to stop working to keep ANY rules or laws for salvation. Eph. 2 says that it is by unearned, unmerited GRACE that we are saved through faith, not of works. Of course saving faith is active and produces works of love. The apostles at Jeruselem gave guidelines which meant to cease from idolatry. We cannot worship Idols and worship God. All of the things mentioned were part of idol worship. OUR GOD IS A JEALOUS GOD. He does not allow us to do both but requires us to choose this day whom you will serve. Some serve money which is also idolatry. But the commandments to love God and to love others is still written on our hearts. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law on our behalf to free us from the requirements of the ceremonial and civil laws, as well as to free us from the necessity of keeping the 10 commandments when we walk in the Spirit in love. The commandments to love God and to love others are fulfilled and expressed by walking in the Spirit. If loving God to you means keeping the sabbath, that is good. But a brother should never judge a brother as to what day they rest and worship God. I never honor my parents by going to their grave sides, but I honer them in my heart and words. No one should judge me in how I honer them. And doing these things do not make me a better Christian. I honor God by living in communion with Him, by reading the Word, worshipping in church, and praising Him and remembering Him as I write on Worthy. We are saved ONLY by faith in God's unearned, unmerited loving favor that was provided by Christ on the Cross That is what the Good News of God's grace is all about. It is the definition of grace. That is also the fuller understanding of entering God's rest is all about. He bought us a free ticket for salvation with His blood. He did NOT buy us a second chance to be good enough to be saved, as I was once led to believe. I ONCE WAS IN DANGER OF FALLING FROM GRACE because I was depending on my own righteousness, trying to keep the 10 commandments. I no longer was trusting in the righteousness of Christ and the grace of God for my salvation but rather in my own goodness. it is by walking in the Spirit that we live the Christian life. He motivates us to love and fills us with His love. TO STEAL WOULD BE WALKING IN THE FLESH. A person walking in the Spirit would not do such a thing because it would not fulfill the law of love. Walking in the Spirit is to walk in love. Our concern is for the welfare of the other person. 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son, and love one another as He gave us commandment. Matt. 22:37-40 Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. Rom. 8:4 the righteous requirements of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Rom. 13:9-10 For the commandments , YOU shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not covet, and if there are any other commandment, all are summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 10. Love does no harm to a neighbor; THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW. Eph 5:2 And walk in love. Bless you Butero, I so appreciate you. Willa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I still do not understand that Eve could be saved through childbearing, unless it was proheticaly pointing to the coming Christ Child It's not a prophecy about Mary. The pronoun "she" in I Tim. 2:15 points back to the woman under discussion in v. 11. Paul is not talking about Eve in this verse. He is not saying that women are eternally saved from sin through childbearing. Plus the plural pronoun and future tense in v. 15 precludes this from being a prophecy about the birth of Jesus. Paul uses "saved" in the sense of preserved. Paul starting up at verse 11 is talking about Eve who brought sin into the world. Even though it was a woman who precipitated sin coming to the world and women bear that stigma, they are preserved from that stigma through the act of childbearing. It should also be pointed out that the childbearing spoken of here is not simply giving birth but speaks to raising Godly seed. It includes raising and training up a child in the ways of the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted May 31, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,654 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2014 I don't think that passage was an all encompassing list of rules for gentiles. If it was, then it would mean that those few things are more important than all other laws, and the gentiles still must keep certain laws to be saved. I think that what he was saying is that the gentiles are not required to keep the ceremonial laws and the laws of separation. The question is, would keeping the Sabbath be one of those laws that doesn't apply to the gentiles. I personally think that the Sabbath law that said nobody could work on Saturday was symbolic of the rest we would now enter into when we cast our burdens on Jesus and enter into his rest. That is how I interpret the Sabbath teachings in Hebrews. There are others that interpret the same passage to mean we must all keep the Saturday Sabbath. My main point is that we all have different views of what are salvation issues. Lets look at the passage your brought up. I could take that passage and say that if someone is hungry, and eats meat that died through strangulation, they lose their salvation. If we take it as all the gentiles need be concerned with, they could steal and remain saved because it wasn't one of the big three. You have to take this in light of the entire Bible. For once I almost agree with you as to what the sabbath rest is. I just believe it is more than that. To cease from our own labors to me is also to stop working to keep ANY rules or laws for salvation. Eph. 2 says that it is by unearned, unmerited GRACE that we are saved through faith, not of works. Of course saving faith is active and produces works of love. The apostles at Jeruselem gave guidelines which meant to cease from idolatry. We cannot worship Idols and worship God. All of the things mentioned were part of idol worship. OUR GOD IS A JEALOUS GOD. He does not allow us to do both but requires us to choose this day whom you will serve. Some serve money which is also idolatry. But the commandments to love God and to love others is still written on our hearts. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law on our behalf to free us from the requirements of the ceremonial and civil laws, as well as to free us from the necessity of keeping the 10 commandments when we walk in the Spirit in love. The commandments to love God and to love others are fulfilled and expressed by walking in the Spirit. If loving God to you means keeping the sabbath, that is good. But a brother should never judge a brother as to what day they rest and worship God. I never honor my parents by going to their grave sides, but I honer them in my heart and words. No one should judge me in how I honer them. And doing these things do not make me a better Christian. I honor God by living in communion with Him, by reading the Word, worshipping in church, and praising Him and remembering Him as I write on Worthy. We are saved ONLY by faith in God's unearned, unmerited loving favor that was provided by Christ on the Cross That is what the Good News of God's grace is all about. It is the definition of grace. That is also the fuller understanding of entering God's rest is all about. He bought us a free ticket for salvation with His blood. He did NOT buy us a second chance to be good enough to be saved, as I was once led to believe. I ONCE WAS IN DANGER OF FALLING FROM GRACE because I was depending on my own righteousness, trying to keep the 10 commandments. I no longer was trusting in the righteousness of Christ and the grace of God for my salvation but rather in my own goodness. it is by walking in the Spirit that we live the Christian life. He motivates us to love and fills us with His love. TO STEAL WOULD BE WALKING IN THE FLESH. A person walking in the Spirit would not do such a thing because it would not fulfill the law of love. Walking in the Spirit is to walk in love. Our concern is for the welfare of the other person. 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son, and love one another as He gave us commandment. Matt. 22:37-40 Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. Rom. 8:4 the righteous requirements of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Rom. 13:9-10 For the commandments , YOU shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not covet, and if there are any other commandment, all are summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 10. Love does no harm to a neighbor; THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW. Eph 5:2 And walk in love. Bless you Butero, I so appreciate you. Willa What I find strange Willa, is that I agree with much of what you said, but there is always this reluctance to agree 100 percent. It is hard to put my finger on where the disagreement lies. I agree with your basic view that "saving faith is active and produces works of love." I can clearly see you are not taking the view that a Christian won't continue in willful sin, but at the same time, you are saying we are not to work to keep any rules or laws for salvation. It is like we both agree that Christians don't live like sinners, but we have a slightly different view of why we follow God's standards. And even there, I am not sure how much we disagree. I believe we are saved by faith, but true faith leads to us doing good works and living right. No change means we aren't really saved. In a practical sense, it seems like we are saying the same thing, but I think the difference is you don't think that failure to live right effects your salvation. This is such a fine line, it is sometimes hard to see it. And thank you for the nice comment at the end of your post. May the Lord bless and keep you. You were waiting for the other shoe to fall. Rom. 8:5 For those who LIVE according to the flesh SET THEIR MINDS ON the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the SPIRIT, THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT. [We become like and pursue what we focus on.] 6.For to be carnally minded is death, but to be Spiritually minded is life and peace. [We are speaking of habitual life styles here.] 13. For if you LIVE according to the flesh you will die; but if BY THE SPIRIT you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. [We confess, repent, and get our eyes back on Christ to again be filled with God's love and be led by the Spirit of love. The danger is when sin hardens our hearts and we resist the leading of the Holy Spirit to repent, or we do not rely on the Holy Spirit to change our hearts and put to death the deeds of the flesh. We can't do those things in our own strength. Jesus kept all that God had given Him but Judas. He still does that. In Rom. 12 We are also to present our bodies as living sacrifices and to be transformed by renewing our minds in God's word so as to not be conformed to the world; Christ sanctifies us and cleanses us by the washing of the water of the Word. Eph 5:26. It is important to stay in the Word. God gives us that hunger for the bread of life, There is now no condemnation for those who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [by walking in the Spirit in love we fulfill all the law.] So how we live does affect our salvation. How we live is defined by how we walk, whether we live by the flesh or by the Spirit. True Christians will learn to recognize the voice of our Shepherd and follow Him We do this by a life style of focusing on our loving God and HIS righteousness and by loving others. We will not follow the voice of the evil one and we will put to death the deeds of the flesh as God changes our hearts and our desires.. We grow in our ablilities to do these things by renewing our minds in and being washed in the Word. We can rest in His completed work at the cross that saved us from our sin so that we no longer have to strive to be good enough to go to heaven. That is entering the rest of ceasing from our own work and allowing Christ to live and work in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure. We are kept by the power of God for salvation in 1 Peter 1:5. But in 2 Peter we are told to confirm and strengthen our election by adding to our faith: virtue, knowledge, self control, perserverance, godliness, kindness and love. Since these are mostly fruit of the Spirit, they will grow in us as we focus on Christ and walk in the Spirit in love.. By continually doing this we are slowly being transformed into the image of Christ. We become like and pursue what we focus on. The thief on the cross was just as saved as was the apostle John in his last days. We are saved just by trusting in and relying on our risen Lord. We walk in the Spirit by actively trusting and depending on Him, too. God enables us both to will and to do for His good pleasure. We are totally a work of God, which is why we will cast our crowns before the Lamb. Does this help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted June 1, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,654 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2014 If your point is that we enter into his rest as we walk in the Spirit rather than keeping a list of commandments, I have no disagreement. When we walk in the Spirit, we bear good fruit. On the other hand, if we choose not to walk in the Spirit, but after the flesh, we wind up doing things that defile us, and then we are by our own choice placing ourselves back up under the law. The law remains to show us right from wrong. That is pretty much right, as I see it. When we repent we again are trusting in God's grace and mercy to forgive us because of what Jesus did on the cross. He died once for all sin. The Holy Spirit shows us our sin so that we will confess it and turn back to Christ's forgiveness. He may use the law to show us that sin. I make a habit of repenting quickly because I can't stand to have bad feelings come between me and another person or to let sin cloud my relationship with God. It is when we make walking in the flesh a lifestyle, harden our hearts and refuse to repent that we may backslide or end up back under the law. When the Bible speaks of walking in the flesh or walking in the Spirit it is speaking of a whole life style, not falling on our faces occasionally. For many of us it takes a while to learn that we cannot live the Christian life in our own strength but we need to rely on the Spirit of Christ in us to change us. We are all a work in progress. My ideas may not line up perfectly with all churches' doctrines, but I think they are pretty close. I am neither a good Calvinist nor a good Arminian. But I do believe that we can rely on God to keep true believers and chasten us when we are in rebellion, to yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness. You guys are like my hubby who can make a point in 10 words or less, while it takes me an hour to spit it out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted June 1, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,654 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2014 GE, regarding your friend who started tithing, I think that God blesses all of us when we step out in faith to trust Him. It is partly due to surrendering our hearts to Him and partly due to taking that "leap of faith". The same thing may happen when we learn to witness to people. It takes something to overcome our fear and to trust God to be there to work things out. So I doubt if you will be able to convince him otherwise, even if you show him that he is not giving a full Jewish tithe. it is best to just let God deal with it. Meanwhile you can tell him that you are doing what God has shown you to do, and he should keep doing what God showed him to do. You could even pray with him thanking God for blessing him Thank you for your ministry to us and making us think and search the Scriptures. Willa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted June 1, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,654 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2014 I still do not understand that Eve could be saved through childbearing, unless it was proheticaly pointing to the coming Christ Child It's not a prophecy about Mary. The pronoun "she" in I Tim. 2:15 points back to the woman under discussion in v. 11. Paul is not talking about Eve in this verse. He is not saying that women are eternally saved from sin through childbearing. Plus the plural pronoun and future tense in v. 15 precludes this from being a prophecy about the birth of Jesus. Paul uses "saved" in the sense of preserved. Paul starting up at verse 11 is talking about Eve who brought sin into the world. Even though it was a woman who precipitated sin coming to the world and women bear that stigma, they are preserved from that stigma through the act of childbearing. It should also be pointed out that the childbearing spoken of here is not simply giving birth but speaks to raising Godly seed. It includes raising and training up a child in the ways of the Lord. Perhaps both are true. Mathew Henry agees with the other theory, pointing out that the WOMAN is singular here and THE CHILD-BEARING Is the litteral translation. The next line agrees with you that women shall be protected if they continue in godliness. I hardly think that this is always the case, though, since many godly and good mothers have lost their lives in childbearing. But this apparently is a promise that can be claimed in prayer. Often it seems that Greek and Hebrew writers in the Bible had double meanings in their manner of expressing themselves that are lost to interpreters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest carmenabbott Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 A. Doctrine: 1 Tim.2:9 NKJV only says that " the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing." It says nothing about men. b.conviction: Perhaps pride and vanity are the things that needs to be dealt with. If a man is proud of his body, he should cover it up. Women who are proud of their hair should cover it, and neither should dress in costly clothing which also lends to pride and vanity. Moderation may be the key word; we should desire to not call attention to ourselves. c preference: However I do find that I am embarrassed when I see a man in a speedo. Even fig leaves are better than that. Sorry sister I didn't see 1 Tim 2:9 in the original quote. I guess that was the passage you referencing. Makes sense. Interesting that you'd base this idea of modesty on this passage. Here it is in context... 1 Tim. 2:8-15 8 I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; 9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. 11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control. Perhaps the women in this passage were flaunting their riches and trying to stand out? Notice the description following: "braided hair, gold, pearls, or costly attire" in the following section I underlined above. I propose the purpose of these women was to show off and to flaunt their social status. Not to show skin as often we think of in discussions about modesty today. Also curious how do you view verse 9 in context of verse 12 a little further down? Also, we should probably define how we're using the term "modesty" or "modest". We may have different definitio To me definitions of modest that come to mind: A. free from ostentation or showy extravagance or B. having or showing regard for the decencies of behavior, speech, dress, etc.; decent or C. not extreme or excessive; moderate D. all of the above I think motivation (why you're dressing, talking, etc a certain way) and attitude (behavior) really come into play in the whole discussion about modesty. I also would say that it's not just women that need to be given a word of caution in this discussion. But it often is women who bear the brunt of the burden of this discussion on modesty What do you think In Christ, GE Interpreting scripture with scripture, I go back to 1 Peter 3:1-6 AMP In like manner you married women, be submissive to your OWN HUSBANDS ---subordinate yourselves as secondary to and dependent on them, and adapt yourselves to them. So that even if any do not obey the Word, they may be won over not by discussion but by the lives of their wives, when they observe the pure and modest way in which you conduct yourselves, together with your reverence---to respect, defer to, revere him. 3. Let not yours be the external adorning with interweaving and knotting of the hair, the wearing of jewelry or changes of cloths; 4. but let it be the the hidden adorning and beauty of the heart, with the incorruptible and unfading charm of a GENTLE AND PEACEFUL SPIRIT, WHICH IS NOT ANXIOUS OR WROUGHT UP, BUT IS VERY PRECIOUS IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. 1 Tim. 2:9a AMP Also that women adorn themselves modestly and appropriately, and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with hair arrangement or gold or pearls, or expensive clothing. I left out added words that were in brackets. Often peaceful spirit is also interpreted as quiet spirit. So I believe the quietness and submissiveness in 1 Tim 2:9-12 refer to the spirit of humility and quiet peacefulness as opposed to being argumentative, disruptive or desiring to be in control. So we are to learn with a quiet submissive spirit, with due regard for those in authority. Anyone in rebellion to those in authority is vulnerable to deception. Changes of clothes is usually interpreted to mean riches and expensive clothing since the poor would not have a change of clothes. Modest and appropriate have to do with not being overly revealing. A modest swim suit would attempt to be less revealing and still be functionally appropriate. (Being fully clothed could lead to drowning.) An appropriate outfit for active sports would have to do with sensible body temperature control as well as using moderation. Dressing to "advertise" the body can be dangerous to women. It has everything to do with our spirit which in turn produces our attitudes and behavior. And it is perhaps closely tied to humility in regard not teaching or taking authority over men as well as dressing with modest restraint.. Purity and modesty are a manner of life, which are reflected by the way we dress. This modestly might include a desire to not draw attention to ones self or not be ostentatious. It is also to be seemly and appropriate to the situation. I have to add that dressing in an alluring way for our husbands is well within propriety. But doing so to attract other men is not. Bathing in the nude is appropriate when in private but is not when in public. We have showers for women or men only at public schools and pools. Yet some of this is cultural. Japan has public bath houses. Preference C is to remain private. I don't even want to share bath water with anyone but family. A man swaggering boldly and ostentatiously,while looking around to see who all are watching him, is not being modest, seemly or humble. Did I answer your questions, GE? Now I have one for you: . v.15. What does being saved by child bearing mean? My AMP reads: Nevertheless (the sentence put upon women of pain in childbearing does not hinder their souls salvation), and they shall be saved if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control; [saved indeed] through Child bearing, that is, by the birth of the [divine] Child. I don't see this as being the literal translation, but perhaps that is what it refers to. I just don't know. Many translations have child in plural: bearing children. Blessings, Willa I agree with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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