question about payer

[Johnlove]

Greetings,   I want to strengthen my relationship with God and feel more purposefully in prayer.

 

When I pray I feel confused about what I should say.  I make a point of never asking for anything for myself , as it seems wrong to use God as a kind of wishing machine.  Although I’m sure if I was really desperate I would.

 

  In prayer, I ask for forgiveness for my sins, and always offer thanks for what has recently happened to me.  I do however ask for specifics regarding the health and happiness of those around me.  I also ask for guidance or for signs that God is looking out for me, or a direction for me to take.

 

I’m frustrated that I don’t see signs or understand any guidance that may have come my way.  Is this a common feeling?

 

My question is how do you manage your prayer, and get to feeling closer to God, like a friend or father?  For me often it feels like I’m going through to motions and I feel formal and no quite relaxed as I would talking to a friend.

 

Many thanks for your reading of my post.

 

Mick.

When one does not know how to pray, then pray in tongues.  But always end a prayer asking for God's will to be done.

[Guest Bethany]

When one does not know how to pray, then pray in tongues.  But always end a prayer asking for God's will to be done.

 

 

 

Why would you pray in tongues? Isn't speaking in tongues meant to edify the church? To present a message and be interpreted and examined against the Word of God?

[Johnlove]

 

When one does not know how to pray, then pray in tongues.  But always end a prayer asking for God's will to be done.

 

 

 

Why would you pray in tongues? Isn't speaking in tongues meant to edify the church? To present a message and be interpreted and examined against the Word of God?

 

When one does not know what to pray, then let the Holy Spirit pray for him or her.  Praying in tongues has many different applications. 

[Guest Bethany]

Can you give some examples of different applications with scripture references? 

[Macs Son]

Can you give some examples of different applications with scripture references?

Sorry to jump in. Would this be the verse you are looking for John?

Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Romans 8:26-28

May the Lord bless, Pat

[Johnlove]

Can you give some examples of different applications with scripture references? 

I will at this time give you personal applications, because it is late, and it is not important for me to convince you.  

 

Jesus had me use tongues when I was first being taught about him.  I would have a question of Jesus, and then would get a tongue, which my wife would receive the interpretation. It would always be the answer to my question.

 

I personally pray in tongues to lift up Jesus in praise.  

 

Jesus would at times give me the interpretation of a tongue to communicate with me , but my relationship with him is now at a point that he no longer uses tongues to communicate with me.  

 

What Jesus has for me to bring to the church is told to me directly.   

 

I pray in tongues often, and it is a prayer of praise of our Lord and God Jesus.

[Guest Bethany]

 

Can you give some examples of different applications with scripture references?

Sorry to jump in. Would this be the verse you are looking for John?

Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Romans 8:26-28

May the Lord bless, Pat

 

I don't believe this verse is talking about speaking in tongues. The word for "groanings" is stenagmos. It means "a groaning, sighing as of the oppressed, and it refers to prayers to God which can't be expressed". That's why he says "cannot be uttered". Speaking in tongues would be expressing something aloud. Also--this is the Holy Spirit making the intercession--he's doing it with groanings that can't be uttered (not that can be uttered). It was God. 

[Johnlove]

1 corithians 14:4

Tounges edifies the believer but if one is able to interpret it edifys the church. When we pray in toumges we ask for things our brain dont know to ask for. Personally, I try not to in front of others but sometimes the spirit takes over my mouth. I try to do so quietly because I got a look from a brother one time that was classic.

John love, I have a question for you. When you got a tounge and your wife got the interpretation did you know she would tell you the interpretation or did you just have unction to speak in tounges or what. I have never had another person give interpretation but have gotten interpretation as I spoke. Just wondering how it happened for you is all.

I sing in tounges too.

The first time Jesus used the gift of tongues, and my wife's gift of interpreting tongues to answer my question, it was not expected by me.  Jesus used this method of answering my questions for about a year.  Then one night he told me: " No more, I want you to pray to be open to my touch, and my word all day long.  From that time on Jesus has just talked to me, and tells me what to do and how to do it.  

[Macs Son]

Can you give some examples of different applications with scripture references?

Sorry to jump in. Would this be the verse you are looking for John?

Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Romans 8:26-28

May the Lord bless, Pat

I don't believe this verse is talking about speaking in tongues. The word for "groanings" is stenagmos. It means "a groaning, sighing as of the oppressed, and it refers to prayers to God which can't be expressed". That's why he says "cannot be uttered". Speaking in tongues would be expressing something aloud. Also--this is the Holy Spirit making the intercession--he's doing it with groanings that can't be uttered (not that can be uttered). It was God.

Hi Bethany, I hope you had a wonderful Lord's day. This is actually well worth looking into deeper, as is the case in all of Scriptures there are gems to be mined and deep pockets of gold. And, while I'll admit that the verse is not a slam dunk of an illustration of praying in the Holy Spirit by tongues, it certainly should not be dismissed hastily without consideration of that being the case either as this may be exactly what Paul meant by the verse.

Two points that we'll probably have no disagreement on are labeled 1 & 2 below; if you disagree we can follow up on them later.

1. Praying in tongues was common in the early church, and was even well documented into the 3rd century. Of course tongues are still used in the Church today but not all Christians believe they're real - "cessation of the gifts and all that". But for now believing that they did exist in the early church, and certainly during the New testament period, is really all we need to believe; for if so then it would not be uncommon for Paul to be talking about the Church using this free gift from the Holy Spirit to pray. I say this more so we don't rule out that possibility too hastily but this fact alone cannot stand on its own and of course I think we both agree that we'll have to look deeper than this.

2. it was not always in the tongues of nations (mankind) but also heavenly tongues - or as Paul alludes to - the tongues of angels

Though "I speak with the tongues" of men and "of angels", but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

-1Corinthians 13:1

So I hope we can agree on this point as well; that it is very much Scriptural that not all tongues by gifting of the Holy Spirit are from human languages but Paul also refers that they may be heavenly tongues or the language of angels, which would be unintelligible to men and women of any nation.

If we agree on these 2 points I think we can proceed deeper.

I believe your premise was that this

"refers to prayers to God which can't be expressed". That's why he says "cannot be uttered". Speaking in tongues would be expressing something aloud".

I don't want to parse words too strongly but I agree somewhat in part with your point here but not holistically with respect to the Bible itself interpreting Scripture for us. I am with you believing Paul is talking about something beyond human expression here as well. Their are not always words for "deep love", "deep grief" or our "utter longing to be with Christ" that are within our capabilities to express with words. But I definitely believe there still can be expressions beyond human language that can be audible. From a humanistic point of view there is music and art that can express things that language cannot but I am talking about something of a much higher form here. I also believe there are mysteries that cannot be uttered in human language either but believe some of those can be uttered in angelic language. So I think this spells out our difference of opinions but our opinions, both mine and yours should be able to be changed in light of Biblical context so I can let you know what I found and if you disagree Scripturally with the quick exegesis then by all means I'm searching for the truth as much as you are, so I'd be privileged to hear another perspective.

Scripturally I believe the two words that appear to be problematic between our differing conclusions would be "groaning" [Gk. στεναγμός / tl: stenagmos] and "cannot be uttered" [Gk. ἀλάλητος / tl: alalētos] Let's move to outline form on these 2 words.

1. It appears that the exact form of [στεναγμός / tl: stenagmos] is found twice in the New Testament, so plan to take a look at it's exact usage in (b) but it's also derived from the Gk. word [στενάζω (tl: stenazō] so to get the best context we'll look at it's etymology usage as well under subcategory "a".

a. root etymology and Bible usage bracketed out in English:

Then, looking up to heaven, He ["sighed], and said to him, “Ephphatha,” that is, “Be opened.” - Mark 7:34

Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves ["groan"] within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. - Romans 8:23

For in this we ["groan"], earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, - 2Corithians 5:2

For we who are in this tent ["groan"], being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. - 2Corinthians 5:4

So it appears, with respect to verses using the root word [στενάζω (tl: stenazō], that we can see here that the context of "sighing" or "groaning" definitely appears to be audible in most cases and there certainly does not appear to be any connotation in these verses, at least not that I can see, that would explicitly disallow these "groanings" or "sighings" from being audible.

But how about the derivative word, which is exactly used in Romans 8:26-28 στεναγμός / tl: stenagmos? We find it in Stephen's speech before the Sanhedrin but I first want to make the context that he was speaking and following the instructions Jesus left us when we are to be delivered up and ask to justify ourselves.

"Now when they bring you to the synagogues and magistrates and authorities, do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say. For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say." - Luke 12:11-12

Exact usage στεναγμός / tl: stenagmos

So this very thing happened to Stephen, one of the first deacons of the Church at Jerusalem, when he was brought up before the Sanhedrin. There they demanded answers of him from the charges his accusers had levied against him. And there when asked if these charges were true it was noted his face was like that of an angel. I therefore have no doubt Stephen was answering his accusers just as Jesus had instructed His disciples; in other words by saying nothing from himself and entirely letting the Holy Spirit of God do all the talking, just like the prophets of old.

Act 7:34 “I have surely seen the oppression of My people who are in Egypt; I have heard their "groaning" [στεναγμός stenagmos] and have come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send you to Egypt.” ’

So the same word as we saw in Romans 8 appears here and there is nothing to say that these groanings were not audible either, in fact they could have been prayers. There's no argument for silence that I see as apparent.

We also have the same usage in the Septuagint

And whom God has hedged in? ["​​For my sighing comes before I eat, ​and my groanings pour out like water"./ πρὸ γὰρ τῶν σίτων μου στεναγμός μοι ἥκει δακρύω δὲ ἐγὼ συνεχόμενος φόβῳ]

​​For the thing I greatly feared has come upon me, and what I dreaded has happened to me. ​​I am not at ease, nor am I quiet;I have no rest, for trouble comes.”

Again groans which no human language can perhaps translate but nevertheless are audible.

Unto the 2nd word:

2. The Greek word Gk. ἀλάλητος / tl: alalētos, while literally is unique to this verse but it could also has similarities to 2 Corinthians 12:4 [Gk: ἄρρητα TL: ῥήματα] which could also infer to words beyond human expression or even words not permitted to be spoken in any human language.

We also see it in 1st Peter 1:8

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— how he was caught up into Paradise and heard "inexpressible words" [Gk: ἄρρητος / tl: arrētos] , which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2Corinthians 12:2-4

So here the context is "inexpressible words" or "inexpressible utterances" but in what context? Perhaps the language of angels that Paul was made to understand but couldn't express or mysteries that could not be disseminated even if there was human language that perhaps could state some sort of paraphrase.

that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy ["inexpressible" Gk: ἀνεκλάλητος TL: aneklalētos] and full of glory.

- 1Peter 1:7-8

Context: So there is a joy that no human translation can suffice to express but what about angels who have a higher form than us and can express things that we cant? Certainly if we can speak with the tongues of angels, where the human language fails us angelic languages may not. So while their joy is clearly incapable of being expressed in human words it certainly may find it expression in God, the Holy Spirit if not the tongues of angels.

In conclusion then.

1. Paul often exhorted the Church to pray in tongues

2. Tongues are more than human languages, which are insufficient to express the joys of God or some of the deep griefs we as human bear in following Christ. Paul tells us tongues encompass the language of angels as well as the nations of mankind.

3. I also infer that the Holy Spirit of God can express all things audibly, etc.

4. There is nothing within the word groanings the negates audible expression

5. unutterable ἀλάλητος / tl: a-lalētos can mean "no human language to express it" or a mystery that God does not want us to express and does not necessarily mean it is unaudible or the Holy Spirit can not say something that has in human language would remain undefined.

6. The gift of tongues comes from the Holy Spirit just as the Prophetic voice that answered the Sanhedrin came from the Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit rebuking the Sanhedrin and Stephen only being obedient to the Spirit to submit his voice and will to the Spirit's authority in his trial.

Anyhow this is why I believe we should not be so hasty as to allow for what I believe is a rather promising possibility that Paul is definitely talking about prayers that human language cannot express but the Holy Spirit can. The gift of tongues is from the Holy Spirit, as is prophecy and the Holy Spirit can communicate all things as well as be audible whenever it so pleases Him, including things that find no human language expression and in things not to be revealed. When the Holy Spirit is working within us our hearts are going to be greatly moved, just as they were with Cornelius' family and household. I almost think it would be amazing if the whole experience was muted. While God is working in us to the levels of taking us through unexpressible things that defy human language the joy of His love and healing is going to be expressed - I just don't think it can be contained!

Anyway I hope you have a nice night in the Lord and may He bless you abundantly, Pat

Edited June 30, 2014 by Macs Son

[enoob57]

My question is how do you manage your prayer, and get to feeling closer to God, like a friend or father?  For me often it feels like I’m going through to motions and I feel formal and no quite relaxed as I would talking to a friend.

 

Many thanks for your reading of my post.

 

Mick.

I do not know how far you have advanced with nearness to The Lord but Prayer is the greatest

privilege we have as God's reborn children! I can in my being speak to God about anything any

where any time and the more your grow in the Respect of God and Who He truly 'IS' the more

you will find prayer the greatest of all provisions God grants us here! When we engage ourselves

toward His Person in saying 'Father' automatically The third Person of The Holy Trinity engages

with us in our quest to commune in personal regard aiding us in righteous desires for Life we are

in here and the one that comes... it is almost dreamlike for me to speak a desire and know this:

1 John 5:14-15

14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing

according to his will, he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hear us,

whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

KJV

This above coupled with this below >blow my mind in the expectations of prayer<

Ps 37:3-5

3 Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily

thou shalt be fed. 4 Delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee

the desires of thine heart. 5 Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in him;

and he shall bring it to pass.

KJV

You cannot believe the beauty that resides in the heart when you with The Holy Spirit

fashion a request of The Father and The Father answer it to the exactness of the request...

His Word proven in undeniable form so that anything He Says no longer comes in any doubt!

So the venue of prayer and the purpose in Him The Glory... Love, Steven