Floatingaxe Posted July 12, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted July 12, 2014 We are the righteousness of God in Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:21 (NKJV) For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Philippians 3:9 (NLT) and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 My example is the prodigal son, and I applied it perfectly. He was originally a son, went into sin and was lost and dead, and returned and was found and saved. Case closed. Your are taking the modern western Christian concept of "lost" and "found" and applying it to a story that isn't using those terms the way we use them. It wasn't about salvation. The boy never stopped being the son of the father. So the modern concept of "lost" and "found" doesn't apply to that story. To me, it is obvious it does apply, but I am not surprised you would deny what is right in front of you. The prodigal son isn't about losing salvation. He was never kicked out of the family, at no point did he ever stop being the son of the father. The parable of the prodigal son was about the love of the father for his son who went astray. If anything it teaches the opposite of what you say. The father never gave up on his son, never stopped loving him. He didn't revoke the son's membership in the family. It was the son who tried to say he was no longer worthy to be a son and the father completely ignored him and instead welcomed him home as his son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Let me show you how this game is played. Those of us who don't accept OSAS will just say that nobody can be saved without faith in Jesus, but we cannot stay saved unless we continue to live right. If your works were weren't good enough to get you saved, how did you suddenly become good enough to keep yourself saved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted July 12, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Philippians 1:6 (NLT) And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns. 2 Corinthians 1:22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, The problem is FA, all you can do is give verses you claim support your position to oppose the mountain of scripture that was posted that goes contrary to your position. That is why this matter is never resolved. In reality, I did give the answer to this in past threads, so I will try again here. The reconciling of all the scriptures on both sides is pre-destination. Those God pre-destined to be saved will be saved at the end. What that means is we have no way to know if we might someday fall into sin and wind up in hell, but God does know. As such, those that God gave to his son Jesus will remain, but we don't know who that is. We can think we are among those people and be wrong. Some will start out bad and wind up with God at the end and some will start out with God and wind up in sin at the end of their life and wind up in hell, though they prayed a sinner's prayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted July 12, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I completely disagree with Floatingaxe. The only sins that are under the blood covering are past sins. If we commit willful sins after getting saved, we are defiled and the only way to get right with God again is to confess those sins to God. One willful or presumptuous sin after salvation can cause you to wind up in hell. Again, the key is that the sin was pre-meditated. Wrong. Jesus' forgiveness is perfect. Being saved means we have a future relationship with God exactly as Floatingaxe said. It is what Christ said was the whole purpose of His coming here was. You are correct. To say that Jesus death only covers "past sins" makes no sense and the Bible doesn't say that. When Jesus died on the cross, He paid the death penalty for "SIN" Man stands before God condemned, not on the basis of whats he has done, but on the basis of his inherent sinful condition, that condition in Romans is known as sin and is directly connected to the death of Jesus on the cross. There were two things that happened on the cross. Jesus blood was shed for the remission of sins AND He died to deliver us once and for all from the bondage of sin, our sinful nature. The blood of Jesus forgives us for what we have done. The death of Jesus delivers us from what we are. The salvation of a believer is connected in the death of Jesus, from about Rom. 5:12 to the end of Romans 8. Paul deals with how a believer is delivered from the bondage of sin. That is why we are eternally secure. Sin carries a death penalty and the death of Jesus paid that death penalty once and for all. It forever satisfied God's justice against sin. But it is up to man to appropriate that by grace through faith. Some of what you said is true, and some is not. Jesus did die to pay the price for any sin we could ever commit, but not everyone benefits from that sin atonement. Some don't benefit because they never accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Some only experience short term benefits because they start out with the Lord and backslide and die in that condition. Some start out saved, backslide like the prodigal son who was lost and dead, and then they return to the Father and are now found and saved again. The same blood atonement saved that person both times. What you are describing is the unfavourable soil conditions of the parable of the sower...not those who are truly saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted July 12, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Some of what you said is true, and some is not. Jesus did die to pay the price for any sin we could ever commit, but not everyone benefits from that sin atonement. No, what I said was the Jesus paid the death penalty for "sin" (singular). Some only experience short term benefits because they start out with the Lord and backslide and die in that condition. Actually there is not one example of that in the Bible. Some start out saved, backslide like the prodigal son who was lost and dead, and then they return to the Father and are now found and saved again. The same blood atonement saved that person both times. That is not how it works. You are misapplying the concept of "lost" and "found" in the prodigal son. My example is the prodigal son, and I applied it perfectly. He was originally a son, went into sin and was lost and dead, and returned and was found and saved. Case closed. The prodigal son was always the son of the Father. He walked away from his family, but never lost his sonship. That parable teaches eternal security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Let me show you how this game is played. Those of us who don't accept OSAS will just say that nobody can be saved without faith in Jesus, but we cannot stay saved unless we continue to live right. If your works were weren't good enough to get you saved, how did you suddenly become good enough to keep yourself saved? I could ask James the same question. God simply expects us to do our best and trust in Christ. There is a difference in doing our best and committing pre-meditated sins. We can't save ourselves, but we can lose our salvation by the choices we make. Our best deeds on your best day are worthless, filthy rags. We don't have any good works that are worth anything. WE are a sinners and a wretch and there is NOTHING anyone can do that is good enough to keep us saved. ' Salvation is Jesus - man. We have nothing to offer Him. Jesus is the only one who has something to offer in salvation. It is all Jesus or nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted July 12, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted July 12, 2014 We are the righteousness of God in Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:21 (NKJV) For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Philippians 3:9 (NLT) and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith. Let me show you how this game is played. Those of us who don't accept OSAS will just say that nobody can be saved without faith in Jesus, but we cannot stay saved unless we continue to live right. They would also say that we recognize that simply turning over a new leaf without Jesus won't work, because even at our best, we will come up short. We also have to deal with the matter of original sin, so we must have faith in Jesus to be saved, but as James tells us, faith without works is dead. I will say that, and you will say the opposite, as I gave my example of the prodigal son, and Shiloh claims I misapplied it. Again, the answer is predestination. In other words, you have to do stuff to be considered worthy of salvation? Good behaviour? Good behaviour didn't save me, and bad behaviour won't damn me. We are saved by the grace of God accesses through faith. Once adopted into the family of God, we are never cast out. To believe that we can be by behaving badly is the same as law-keeping--what does God say about that? Galatians 5:4 (AMP) If you seek to be justified and declared righteous and to be given a right standing with God through the Law, you are brought to nothing and so separated (severed) from Christ. You have fallen away from grace (from God’s gracious favor and unmerited blessing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted July 12, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Philippians 1:6 (NLT) And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns. 2 Corinthians 1:22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, The problem is FA, all you can do is give verses you claim support your position to oppose the mountain of scripture that was posted that goes contrary to your position. That is why this matter is never resolved. In reality, I did give the answer to this in past threads, so I will try again here. The reconciling of all the scriptures on both sides is pre-destination. Those God pre-destined to be saved will be saved at the end. What that means is we have no way to know if we might someday fall into sin and wind up in hell, but God does know. As such, those that God gave to his son Jesus will remain, but we don't know who that is. We can think we are among those people and be wrong. Some will start out bad and wind up with God at the end and some will start out with God and wind up in sin at the end of their life and wind up in hell, though they prayed a sinner's prayer. There is no mountain of scripture that does what you want it to do---oppose God's grace. What you are proposing is similar to the Catholic view that we have no certainty of salvation until we die. It is wrong. I like how you brought the Catholics in this like everything they say must be wrong because they are Catholic. I could say it is a Catholic doctrine that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, but it would be true. The mountain of scripture was already provided. Just that passage in Galatians alone proves you are wrong. It gives a list of behavior that will keep people from inheriting the Kingdom of God, and Christians do those things. In the parable of the sower, those people were saved for a time, but didn't remain saved. If they weren't saved for a time, it would mean that God refuses some that come to him, and if they were to die before they fell away, they would wind up in hell. They truly have no security. What if you were seed sewn on bad ground, but you haven't fallen away yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted July 12, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Let me show you how this game is played. Those of us who don't accept OSAS will just say that nobody can be saved without faith in Jesus, but we cannot stay saved unless we continue to live right. If your works were weren't good enough to get you saved, how did you suddenly become good enough to keep yourself saved? I could ask James the same question. God simply expects us to do our best and trust in Christ. There is a difference in doing our best and committing pre-meditated sins. We can't save ourselves, but we can lose our salvation by the choices we make. Our best deeds on your best day are worthless, filthy rags. We don't have any good works that are worth anything. WE are a sinners and a wretch and there is NOTHING anyone can do that is good enough to keep us saved. ' Salvation is Jesus - man. We have nothing to offer Him. Jesus is the only one who has something to offer in salvation. It is all Jesus or nothing. How true, but that is where grace comes in. Because of the blood of Jesus, he will give grace to us for those unintended short comings. What he doesn't do is give grace when we commit willful sins, like choosing to meet up with a hooker when our wife thinks we are at work. The person that would do such a thing would have to return to God as the prodigal did to be saved again. Our sins are not imputed to us. Romans 5:16-17 (NLT) And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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