Scripture threatens loss of salvation

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

 

Let me show you how this game is played.  Those of us who don't accept OSAS will just say that nobody can be saved without faith in Jesus, but we cannot stay saved unless we continue to live right. 

If your works were weren't good enough to get you saved, how did you suddenly become good enough to keep yourself saved?

 

I could ask James the same question.  God simply expects us to do our best and trust in Christ.  There is a difference in doing our best and committing pre-meditated sins.  We can't save ourselves, but we can lose our salvation by the choices we make. 

 

Our best deeds on your best day are worthless, filthy rags.  We don't have any good works that are worth anything. WE are a sinners and a wretch and there is NOTHING  anyone  can do that is good enough to keep us saved.   '

 

Salvation is Jesus - man.  We have nothing to offer Him.  Jesus is the only one who has something to offer in salvation. It is all Jesus or nothing.

 

How true, but that is where grace comes in.  Because of the blood of Jesus, he will give grace to us for those unintended short comings.  What he doesn't do is give grace when we commit willful sins, like choosing to meet up with a hooker when our wife thinks we are at work.  The person that would do such a thing would have to return to God as the prodigal did to be saved again. 

 

That is false teaching and does not reflect authentic New Testament Christianity.

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

We are the righteousness of God in Christ.

 

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NKJV)

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

Philippians 3:9 (NLT)

and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith.

Let me show you how this game is played.  Those of us who don't accept OSAS will just say that nobody can be saved without faith in Jesus, but we cannot stay saved unless we continue to live right.  They would also say that we recognize that simply turning over a new leaf without Jesus won't work, because even at our best, we will come up short.  We also have to deal with the matter of original sin, so we must have faith in Jesus to be saved, but as James tells us, faith without works is dead.  I will say that, and you will say the opposite, as I gave my example of the prodigal son, and Shiloh claims I misapplied it.  Again, the answer is predestination. 

 

 

In other words, you have to do stuff to be considered worthy of salvation? Good behaviour?

 

Good behaviour didn't save me, and bad behaviour won't damn me. We are saved by the grace of God accesses through faith. Once adopted into the family of God, we are never cast out. To believe that we can be by behaving badly is the same as law-keeping--what does God say about that?

 

Galatians 5:4 (AMP)

If you seek to be justified and declared righteous and to be given a right standing with God through the Law, you are brought to nothing and so separated (severed) from Christ. You have fallen away from grace (from God’s gracious favor and unmerited blessing).

 

James says faith without works is dead.  Jesus said that we are his friends if we do whatsoever he commands us.  It is not what I do that saves me, but what I don't do can cost me.  That would be willful sins, as there is no automatic cleansing for it, anymore than there was forgiveness for presumptuous sins under the law of Moses.  If you have a Concordance, check it out for yourself. 

 

 

Let me explain James to you. True faith and the renewed mind that Holy Spirit brings into a life brings with it good works, the works of Christ. We don;t have to dredge up good behaviour. We, as a result of our new nature in Christ will be producing works that coincide with our faith in Christ---without striving.

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

 

 

Philippians 1:6 (NLT)

And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

 

2 Corinthians 1:22

who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

 

Ephesians 1:13

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The problem is FA, all you can do is give verses you claim support your position to oppose the mountain of scripture that was posted that goes contrary to your position.  That is why this matter is never resolved.  In reality, I did give the answer to this in past threads, so I will try again here.

 

 

 

The reconciling of all the scriptures on both sides is pre-destination.  Those God pre-destined to be saved will be saved at the end.  What that means is we have no way to know if we might someday fall into sin and wind up in hell, but God does know.  As such, those that God gave to his son Jesus will remain, but we don't know who that is.  We can think we are among those people and be wrong.  Some will start out bad and wind up with God at the end and some will start out with God and wind up in sin at the end of their life and wind up in hell, though they prayed a sinner's prayer. 

 

 

There is no mountain of scripture that does what you want it to do---oppose God's grace.

 

 

What you are proposing is similar to the Catholic view that we have no certainty of salvation until we die. It is wrong.

 

I like how you brought the Catholics in this like everything they say must be wrong because they are Catholic.  I could say it is a Catholic doctrine that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, but it would be true. 

 

The mountain of scripture was already provided.  Just that passage in Galatians alone proves you are wrong.  It gives a list of behavior that will keep people from inheriting the Kingdom of God, and Christians do those things. 

 

In the parable of the sower, those people were saved for a time, but didn't remain saved.  If they weren't saved for a time, it would mean that God refuses some that come to him, and if they were to die before they fell away, they would wind up in hell.  They truly have no security.  What if you were seed sewn on bad ground, but you haven't fallen away yet? 

 

 

No they weren't saved.

 

Then perhaps you aren't saved.  You haven't reached the end yet.  You may yet be choked by the cares of this life.  How do you know, anymore than they knew? 

 

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let me show you how this game is played.  Those of us who don't accept OSAS will just say that nobody can be saved without faith in Jesus, but we cannot stay saved unless we continue to live right. 

If your works were weren't good enough to get you saved, how did you suddenly become good enough to keep yourself saved?

 

I could ask James the same question.  God simply expects us to do our best and trust in Christ.  There is a difference in doing our best and committing pre-meditated sins.  We can't save ourselves, but we can lose our salvation by the choices we make. 

 

Our best deeds on your best day are worthless, filthy rags.  We don't have any good works that are worth anything. WE are a sinners and a wretch and there is NOTHING  anyone  can do that is good enough to keep us saved.   '

 

Salvation is Jesus - man.  We have nothing to offer Him.  Jesus is the only one who has something to offer in salvation. It is all Jesus or nothing.

 

How true, but that is where grace comes in.  Because of the blood of Jesus, he will give grace to us for those unintended short comings.  What he doesn't do is give grace when we commit willful sins, like choosing to meet up with a hooker when our wife thinks we are at work.  The person that would do such a thing would have to return to God as the prodigal did to be saved again. 

 

 

Our sins are not imputed to us.

 

Romans 5:16-17 (NLT)

 And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. ¹⁷ For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

 

Again, this is simple.  He is speaking of people who are overcomers, not people living in sin.  They were at one time guilty of many sins, but God saved them by grace.  It is the only way they could be saved, but they don't continue in sin.  In addition to that is the same thing I mentioned earlier, predestination.  The chosen people will remain saved or return and be saved in time.  All you can do FA is add your choice of scriptures while ignoring scriptures that go contrary to your beliefs. 

 

 

We are all overcomers in Christ! Some struggle harder than others, but by the blood of Jesus, the born again Christian has been saved by God's great grace through our faith.

 

I believe all scripture, but I don't twist them to suit a preconceived teaching of men. What I believe we are seeing here is a lack of a revelation of grace. Once one has received God's revelation of grace, these things all fall into place.

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Philippians 1:6 (NLT)

And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

 

2 Corinthians 1:22

who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

 

Ephesians 1:13

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The problem is FA, all you can do is give verses you claim support your position to oppose the mountain of scripture that was posted that goes contrary to your position.  That is why this matter is never resolved.  In reality, I did give the answer to this in past threads, so I will try again here.

 

 

 

The reconciling of all the scriptures on both sides is pre-destination.  Those God pre-destined to be saved will be saved at the end.  What that means is we have no way to know if we might someday fall into sin and wind up in hell, but God does know.  As such, those that God gave to his son Jesus will remain, but we don't know who that is.  We can think we are among those people and be wrong.  Some will start out bad and wind up with God at the end and some will start out with God and wind up in sin at the end of their life and wind up in hell, though they prayed a sinner's prayer. 

 

 

There is no mountain of scripture that does what you want it to do---oppose God's grace.

 

 

What you are proposing is similar to the Catholic view that we have no certainty of salvation until we die. It is wrong.

 

I like how you brought the Catholics in this like everything they say must be wrong because they are Catholic.  I could say it is a Catholic doctrine that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, but it would be true. 

 

The mountain of scripture was already provided.  Just that passage in Galatians alone proves you are wrong.  It gives a list of behavior that will keep people from inheriting the Kingdom of God, and Christians do those things. 

 

In the parable of the sower, those people were saved for a time, but didn't remain saved.  If they weren't saved for a time, it would mean that God refuses some that come to him, and if they were to die before they fell away, they would wind up in hell.  They truly have no security.  What if you were seed sewn on bad ground, but you haven't fallen away yet? 

 

 

No they weren't saved.

 

Then perhaps you aren't saved.  You haven't reached the end yet.  You may yet be choked by the cares of this life.  How do you know, anymore than they knew? 

 

 

LOL! I am saved by my faith in what Jesus did for me on the cross. Saved to the uttermost as said in:

 

Hebrews 7:25 (NLT)

Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf.

 

What about all those people out there thinking the same thing, who will one day be choked by the cares of this life and die in their sins.  They are going around today saying they are saved by faith.  Little do they know. 

 

Interestingly enough, it only says he is able to save them once and forever, not that he will.  The blood of Jesus is sufficient for everyone on the earth, but not everyone will be saved. 

 

[gigman7]

 

 

I completely disagree with Floatingaxe.  The only sins that are under the blood covering are past sins.  If we commit willful sins after getting saved, we are defiled and the only way to get right with God again is to confess those sins to God.  One willful or presumptuous sin after salvation can cause you to wind up in hell.  Again, the key is that the sin was pre-meditated. 

Wrong. Jesus' forgiveness is perfect. Being saved means we have a future relationship with God exactly as Floatingaxe said. It is what Christ said was the whole purpose of His coming here was.

 

I am not sure what to do with that comment.  I would just say you are wrong and so is Floatingaxe.  Feel free to respond by telling me I am wrong again so we can go around in circles. 

 

Ok, how is Jesus' forgiveness not perfect. How is being saved not mean a relationship with God?

[gigman7]

 

 

I completely disagree with Floatingaxe.  The only sins that are under the blood covering are past sins.  If we commit willful sins after getting saved, we are defiled and the only way to get right with God again is to confess those sins to God.  One willful or presumptuous sin after salvation can cause you to wind up in hell.  Again, the key is that the sin was pre-meditated. 

Wrong. Jesus' forgiveness is perfect. Being saved means we have a future relationship with God exactly as Floatingaxe said. It is what Christ said was the whole purpose of His coming here was.

 

You are correct.  To say that Jesus death only covers "past sins" makes no sense and the Bible doesn't say that.

 

When Jesus died on the cross, He paid the death penalty for "SIN"    Man stands before God condemned, not on the basis of whats he has done, but on the basis of his inherent sinful condition, that condition in Romans is known as sin and is directly connected to the death of Jesus on the cross. 

 

There were two things that happened on the cross.  Jesus blood was shed for the remission of sins AND He died to deliver us once and for all from the bondage of sin, our sinful nature.   The blood of Jesus forgives us for what we have done.  The death of Jesus delivers us from what we are.

 

The salvation of a believer is connected in the death of Jesus, from about Rom. 5:12 to the end of Romans 8.  Paul deals with how a believer is delivered from the bondage of sin.  That is why we are eternally secure.

 

Sin carries a death penalty and the death of Jesus paid that death penalty once and for all. It forever satisfied God's justice against sin. But it is up to man to appropriate that by grace through faith.

 

Correct. As I have said several times, if we weren't forgiven for future sins, we'd all be going to hell.

[gigman7]

 

 

 

I completely disagree with Floatingaxe.  The only sins that are under the blood covering are past sins.  If we commit willful sins after getting saved, we are defiled and the only way to get right with God again is to confess those sins to God.  One willful or presumptuous sin after salvation can cause you to wind up in hell.  Again, the key is that the sin was pre-meditated. 

Wrong. Jesus' forgiveness is perfect. Being saved means we have a future relationship with God exactly as Floatingaxe said. It is what Christ said was the whole purpose of His coming here was.

 

You are correct.  To say that Jesus death only covers "past sins" makes no sense and the Bible doesn't say that.

 

When Jesus died on the cross, He paid the death penalty for "SIN"    Man stands before God condemned, not on the basis of whats he has done, but on the basis of his inherent sinful condition, that condition in Romans is known as sin and is directly connected to the death of Jesus on the cross. 

 

There were two things that happened on the cross.  Jesus blood was shed for the remission of sins AND He died to deliver us once and for all from the bondage of sin, our sinful nature.   The blood of Jesus forgives us for what we have done.  The death of Jesus delivers us from what we are.

 

The salvation of a believer is connected in the death of Jesus, from about Rom. 5:12 to the end of Romans 8.  Paul deals with how a believer is delivered from the bondage of sin.  That is why we are eternally secure.

 

Sin carries a death penalty and the death of Jesus paid that death penalty once and for all. It forever satisfied God's justice against sin. But it is up to man to appropriate that by grace through faith.

 

Some of what you said is true, and some is not.  Jesus did die to pay the price for any sin we could ever commit, but not everyone benefits from that sin atonement.  Some don't benefit because they never accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.  Some only experience short term benefits because they start out with the Lord and backslide and die in that condition.  Some start out saved, backslide like the prodigal son who was lost and dead, and then they return to the Father and are now found and saved again.  The same blood atonement saved that person both times. 

 

If you were saved yesterday and haven't been saved today, you better get to praying. As a matter of fact, if you haven't been saved in the last 5 minutes, you had better be accepting Jesus. It is the only way we can get to Heaven under your explanation.

[Floatingaxe]

There is a difference between a Christian committing a sin, which we all do, most with some regularity, and those who abandon God and reject His grace---and become reprobate.

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Philippians 1:6 (NLT)

And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

 

2 Corinthians 1:22

who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

 

Ephesians 1:13

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The problem is FA, all you can do is give verses you claim support your position to oppose the mountain of scripture that was posted that goes contrary to your position.  That is why this matter is never resolved.  In reality, I did give the answer to this in past threads, so I will try again here.

 

 

 

The reconciling of all the scriptures on both sides is pre-destination.  Those God pre-destined to be saved will be saved at the end.  What that means is we have no way to know if we might someday fall into sin and wind up in hell, but God does know.  As such, those that God gave to his son Jesus will remain, but we don't know who that is.  We can think we are among those people and be wrong.  Some will start out bad and wind up with God at the end and some will start out with God and wind up in sin at the end of their life and wind up in hell, though they prayed a sinner's prayer. 

 

 

There is no mountain of scripture that does what you want it to do---oppose God's grace.

 

 

What you are proposing is similar to the Catholic view that we have no certainty of salvation until we die. It is wrong.

 

I like how you brought the Catholics in this like everything they say must be wrong because they are Catholic.  I could say it is a Catholic doctrine that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, but it would be true. 

 

The mountain of scripture was already provided.  Just that passage in Galatians alone proves you are wrong.  It gives a list of behavior that will keep people from inheriting the Kingdom of God, and Christians do those things. 

 

In the parable of the sower, those people were saved for a time, but didn't remain saved.  If they weren't saved for a time, it would mean that God refuses some that come to him, and if they were to die before they fell away, they would wind up in hell.  They truly have no security.  What if you were seed sewn on bad ground, but you haven't fallen away yet? 

 

 

No they weren't saved.

 

Then perhaps you aren't saved.  You haven't reached the end yet.  You may yet be choked by the cares of this life.  How do you know, anymore than they knew? 

 

 

LOL! I am saved by my faith in what Jesus did for me on the cross. Saved to the uttermost as said in:

 

Hebrews 7:25 (NLT)

Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf.

 

What about all those people out there thinking the same thing, who will one day be choked by the cares of this life and die in their sins.  They are going around today saying they are saved by faith.  Little do they know. 

 

Interestingly enough, it only says he is able to save them once and forever, not that he will.  The blood of Jesus is sufficient for everyone on the earth, but not everyone will be saved. 

 

 

Let God deal with them, as He sees their hearts. If they have received Jesus by faith, then God has them firmly in His grip, and He will never let them go.

 

But if they go through the process of saying that sinner's prayer, and endure for a time, they think they are saved by grace.  You are saying they were never really saved, so where is the assurance in that for anyone?