Israel (Jews) and Our Views

[Guest Butero]

I do find this interesting about the church in a future tense.  I have never heard that before.  Even given the language that you showed Shiloh, it is my understanding that the Christian church was established in the upper room on the day of Pentecost.  At least, that is what most teach, and I could even suggest that it began immediately after Jesus shed his blood on the cross, because that began the new covenant, and salvation by faith in Christ.  That is when the veil in the temple was rent in two.  Even given the language Jesus used, couldn't it be said that the church was born at the time of either of those two events?  I personally agree with OC on this point.  I don't see how it could be otherwise.

[Guest shiloh357]

God did have a "people" in the earth and he "still has" a people in the earth regardless of their race or nationality. But you don't view them as just one people but two people in the earth or at least that is my understanding. You don't view the Jews and Gentiles as being fellowheirs in the promises of God by faith as the faith of Abraham who believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.

 

The nation of Israel is still God's nation.  They are still His people and He has never claimed otherwise.   God has also established His Church.  Both are there to serve God's purposes.

 

Well whether you think I can or can't get that from scripture I do just the same. I'm actually surprised here with your view that the Church doesn't exist right now on earth but will exist in the future still to come.

 

That's not what I said.  I said that it was still future at the time Jesus spoke those words.  I did not say it is still in the future today.

 

Sometimes the waters need to be skimmed from the top before we drink.

 

You need to read what i said instead of assigning values to me that are false.

 

The mystery in which Paul speaks about is revealed to his saints regardless of nationality and that is "Christ in us the hope of glory". This is the first time I have ever heard this train of thought on the Church coming into existance during the end times dealing with Israel the nation. Interesting.

 

Yeah, that would be interesting if I had actually said that.

 

Yes that's exactly what I said "confession on HIM". On Christ the solid rock I stand all else is sinking sand.

 

No, that's not what you said.   You are saying that Jesus is the rock in that verse.    Jesus is saying that Peter's confession is the rock upon which Jesus will found His church.

 

The confusion I have is that you seem to think there are two peoples of God in the earth or at least it sounds like it to me I'm not clear on it.

 

And why is it a problem that the nation of Israel is God's people and the Church are also His people?   Both serve different purposes, but He still calls biblical Israel His people and he said that they would remain His people so long as the sun and other luminaries were still in the sky (Jer. 31:35-37).

[Openly Curious]

 shiloh357

The nation of Israel is still God's nation.  They are still His people and He has never claimed otherwise.   God has also established His Church.  Both are there to serve God's purposes.

I never said Israel isn't still God's nation I know that they are. I also know God has established his church. But the question to you is, When did he establish His church? Has the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ already been established on earth. Or has the Church not yet been established?
 
Well whether you think I can or can't get that from scripture I do just the same. I'm actually surprised here with your view that the Church doesn't exist right now on earth but will exist in the future still to come.
 

 

That's not what I said.  I said that it was still future at the time Jesus spoke those words.  I did not say it is still in the future today.

So where is it then? Is the Church here today? Or is the Church still to come in the future? 



Sometimes the waters need to be skimmed from the top before we drink.
 

 

You need to read what i said instead of assigning values to me that are false.

What I said was "my" response to what you said which was

 

Jesus said that He will (in the future) build His Church. It could not be plainer and there is no reason to muddy the waters.

If anyone is assigning values to you it is only in your mind. Sometimes the waters do need to be skimmed from the top before I drink.

The mystery in which Paul speaks about is revealed to his saints regardless of nationality and that is "Christ in us the hope of glory". This is the first time I have ever heard this train of thought on the Church coming into existance during the end times dealing with Israel the nation. Interesting.
 

 

Yeah, that would be interesting if I had actually said that.

So if I got it wrong? Clarify. Is the Church already come into existance? Or is the Church still yet to come in the future events? 

Yes that's exactly what I said "confession on HIM". On Christ the solid rock I stand all else is sinking sand.
 

 

No, that's not what you said.   You are saying that Jesus is the rock in that verse.    Jesus is saying that Peter's confession is the rock upon which Jesus will found His church.

Okay for your sake I'll say the "Rock" is Peter's confession upon which Jesus will found His Church. So when did he found the Church? 

The confusion I have is that you seem to think there are two peoples of God in the earth or at least it sounds like it to me I'm not clear on it.
 

 

And why is it a problem that the nation of Israel is God's people and the Church are also His people?   Both serve different purposes, but He still calls biblical Israel His people and he said that they would remain His people so long as the sun and other luminaries were still in the sky (Jer. 31:35-37).

Every person that is a believer is God's people. There is only one true God that we can serve and give ourselves unto. There is no difference in that whether you are of Jewish decent or are a Gentile by decent. Because there is only one true God we both can serve. The problem is that you are saying there are two bodies of Christ or two peoples of God. Being the Jews and The Chuch. You have seperated the Jews and Gentiles as two bodies being two seperate entities.

Yes the nation of Israel is His people God brought the nation into being himself. But those of Jewish decent without Christ can be just as lost being the people of God just as any Gentile can be lost without Christ in this world be that now or in the future. God has broken down the middle wall of partition that was between us making us twain one new man and not two. The nation of Israel itself isn't being questioned by me and I know that God has plans to fulfill his promises spoken on behalf of the nation. They will not be blinded in part forever that Jesus really was the Messiah the Savior of the world and their hearts will turn to him and God will keep his promises to them and this is yet to be fulfilled in the future.

Do you believe in the future still to come that the Jewish people are going to be establishe as His Church and that the Gentiles are not going to be a part of His Church? Because this is what it seems you are saying.

[Guest shiloh357]

I never said Israel isn't still God's nation I know that they are. I also know God has established his church. But the question to you is, When did he establish His church? Has the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ already been established on earth. Or has the Church not yet been established?

 

I think I have made it abundantly clear that the Church has already been established and that it started on the Day of Pentecost.  I made that clear early on in this thread. 

 

So if I got it wrong? Clarify. Is the Church already come into existance? Or is the Church still yet to come in the future events?

 

Yes, you got it wrong and that is because you are responding to what you think I said and you didn't pay attention to what was written.   I never said the church is still to come.   I really don't see in anything I posted where you would think I believed such a thing.  It proves that you are not really reading my posts.

 

Okay for your sake I'll say the "Rock" is Peter's confession upon which Jesus will found His Church. So when did he found the Church?

 

The Day of Pentecost

 

The problem is that you are saying there are two bodies of Christ or two peoples of God.

 

No, that is how you are painting what I said.  Apparently, you can't respond to my posts based on what I said, so you have to make up things I never said or even implied.

 

I am not saying there are two bodies of Christ.  I am saying that God has two people's in the earth, Israel and the Church and they are radically separate and they both serve different purposes in the world. I am not saying that Jews are saved apart from Christ or that they have a special plan of salvation

 

God has an earthly people, Israel.  He also has a heavenly people, the Church.  It really isn't that hard to understand.

 

Do you believe in the future still to come that the Jewish people are going to be establishe as His Church and that the Gentiles are not going to be a part of His Church? Because this is what it seems you are saying.

 

Only in your imagination where you twist and contort everything I say.   I have never said or implied that. 

[Openly Curious]

 

I think I have made it aundantly clear that the Church has already been establishe and that it started on the Day of Pentecost.  I made that clear early on in this thread.

 

So now it is crystal clear the Church was established on the day of Pentecost. Great

 

 

I am not saying there are two bodies of Christ.  I am saying that God has two people's in the earth., Israel and the Church and they are radically separate and they both serve different purposes in the world. 

 

God has an earthly people, Israel.  He also has a heavenly people, the Church. 

Then can you tell me just who it is that makes up the Body of Christ the Church today. Who do the members in the Body of Christ include or exclude?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

 

 

I think I have made it aundantly clear that the Church has already been establishe and that it started on the Day of Pentecost.  I made that clear early on in this thread.

 

So now it is crystal clear the Church was established on the day of Pentecost. Great

 

 

 

I am not saying there are two bodies of Christ.  I am saying that God has two people's in the earth., Israel and the Church and they are radically separate and they both serve different purposes in the world. 

 

God has an earthly people, Israel.  He also has a heavenly people, the Church. 

Then can you tell me just who it is that makes up the Body of Christ the Church today. Who do the members in the Body of Christ include or exclude?

 

Church membership is a regenerate membership.  The Church is made up of saved, baptized, Holy Spirit indwelt believers in Jesus Christ.

[Openly Curious]

 

Then can you tell me just who it is that makes up the Body of Christ the Church today. Who do the members in the Body of Christ include or exclude?

 

Church membership is a regenerate membership.  The Church is made up of saved, baptized, Holy Spirit indwelt believers in Jesus Christ.

Does that membership in the Body of Christ include the regenrate Jewish believers as well as the regenerate Gentile believers in Jesus Christ as one Body?  

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Then can you tell me just who it is that makes up the Body of Christ the Church today. Who do the members in the Body of Christ include or exclude?

 

Church membership is a regenerate membership.  The Church is made up of saved, baptized, Holy Spirit indwelt believers in Jesus Christ.

Does that membership in the Body of Christ include the regenrate Jewish believers as well as the regenerate Gentile believers in Jesus Christ as one Body?  

 

 

 

Yes, but it doesn't include the OT saints.

[Openly Curious]

Then can you tell me just who it is that makes up the Body of Christ the Church today. Who do the members in the Body of Christ include or exclude?

Church membership is a regenerate membership.  The Church is made up of saved, baptized, Holy Spirit indwelt believers in Jesus Christ.

Does that membership in the Body of Christ include the regenrate Jewish believers as well as the regenerate Gentile believers in Jesus Christ as one Body?

Yes, but it doesn't include the OT saints.

The OT saints are still included and are part of the general assembly in heaven as spoken of in Hebrews 13. But the OT saints were included and became a part of the general assembly in heaven during a different dispensational time is the only difference I see.

[Guest shiloh357]

The OT saints are still included and are part of the general assembly in heaven as spoken of in Hebrews 13. But the OT saints were included and became a part of the general assembly in heaven during a different dispensational time is the only difference I see.

 

The Church started at Pentecost.  That fact precludes OT saints from being members of "The Church."  That is the point I am making.