Non-OSAS and sleep

[GoldenEagle]

Sure, I think that is best for thread.

 

What do you mean? Lol. I don't understand. How would you feel reading it if the example I gave was the start of this thread?

How do people who believe that you you can't loose your salvation... sleep at night.

I really honestly want to know, what are the sleeping patterns like.

How do you sleep at night considering all the Bible has to say about the matter?

Oh, this should be a fun thread.

God bless,

GE

 

[dscapp]

Dscapp, with your last post I agree with what you say at least the last part of it. But thats not what I am talking about nor is it whats being discussed in the scriptures I posted. There is a difference between a believer sinning here and there, as we do. And I think Gods grace does cover that. But its when we sin and sin and sin and we turn away from this grace and mercy, and no longer seek it. Instead seeking sin. This is apostasy. Its when the heart abandons seeking the Lord and begins seeking sin. Its when one makes the decision to ignore Gods calling and no lomger serve God, but serve sin. That I am speaking of is when when a christian no longer chases after sanctification, but seeks sin. What I am speaking on is not a sin here and there, its an attitude of the heart. If you dont think its possible, then pick any one of the books of the prophets and read in there and tell me Gods people didnt turn from Him. Just because we get saved dont mean God controlls our actions. Look at jonah. God told him to go tell ninevah to repent and he jumped in a boat going the wrong way. And Jonah stayed in the belly of that great fish until he repented. Every since the beginning man has always had a choice. There was two trees in the midst of the garden. The tree of knowledge, and the tree of life. Every situation has a choice for us to make. In deuteronomy chapter 30 it says I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing, therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live... the bible says the gift of God is eternal life... and what is life if not for the living. We dont get to recieve this gift and live how we want. We got to do it Gods way. Which means we cant serve sin because the wages of sin is death. Even Adam had the breath of God but in one act of disobedience his spirit died inside him. Thats why we need to ask Jesus to come into our heart, so we can live spiritualy again. Please dont mistake what I am saying as I am nlt saying sinning occasionaly, bit rather sinning unrestrained and openly. This is apostatsy, and according to The Bible in more places than I can count on both hands it says apostasy thats final, not partial(meaning repented of) is going to get someone cast off. The bible tells us God is not a respecterof persons. Read what it says in 1chron 28:9... and thou, solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve Him with a perfect heart, and a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek Him, He will be found of thee; but if thou forsake Him He will cast thee off for ever.... this scripture is one God showed me when I was thinking about throwing in the towel. I hope you understand that what you replied to me and what I am trying to tell you are two different things all together.

 

I agree with everything you said.

[Godspells]

OSAS In my opinion teaches that after baptism you can go on and do whatever you want, which I think is errenous. 

 

We are bought by God through the blood of Christ, and thus are called to honor that sacrifice by serving God. Squandering that gift, IMO, brings upon risk of loosing salvation. 

[dscapp]

OSAS In my opinion teaches that after baptism you can go on and do whatever you want.

 

But it doesn't teach that, that's where people err.

[The_Patriot21]

In the parable the plants died. Period. If you walk away from Christ then your faith dies. Its pretty simple. Ignoring/blowing off scripture like this won't give you any credibility in my book.

Well, there's a reason why it's called a parable. The same way Luke 16:19-31 is not describing heaven or hell, rather it's simply describing our relationship with God. When you accepted Jesus as savior you had faith that he was God. You don't just stop believing or stop having faith that he is God. The Holy Spirit doesn't erase his existence from your memory. That's silly. Your faith doesn't die, it may grow a little weak at times but it doesn't die. Mainly because it's impossible for the Holy Spirit to die. Jesus wasn't resurrected just so he can die again. Also silly.

None of the scriptures you have provided say anything about what happens if you turn and walk away from God. Repent literaly means to turn away from sin. To walk away. Apostasy literaly means to turn from God and walk away. You cannot serve sin and God. It comes down to a choice which one we will serve. Osas cherry picks the good scriptures but ignores the ones that say there is consequences. If someone warned me of danger, I would want to know about it and would not take it lightly.

But there's a difference between a nonbeliever repenting and a believer repenting. When a nonbeliever repents he is accepting God's salvation. When a believer repents, he is simply drawing closer to God. The believer already accepted God's salvation years ago. Let's say a believer committed a sin yesterday and did not repent. The next day he drove to work and died in a car crash. This believer Cletus is still going to heaven because his sins were already covered when he became born again. That's what the blood of Jesus represents. It doesn't mean you should keep sinning and walk away from God. It simply means God is unconditional love, no more no less.

Exactly my point its talking about our relationship. If our faith dies and we walk away from God-the natural outcome? Your no longer saved.

[GoldenEagle]

The OSAS view is that when a person comes to know Jesus as their Savior they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation is eternally secure. I’ll present Scripture and then speak to it afterwards below.

Rom. 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

A) This view interprets this passage that from the moment God chooses us it as if we are brought into His presence eternally. There is nothing that can prevent a Believer from one day as God has purposed it in eternity. Once a person is justified his or her salvation is guaranteed – as if he or she is already glorified in eternity.


 

Rom. 8:33-34
³³ Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. ³⁴ Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.


B) This view questions who is to bring a charge against God’s elect. The argument is nobody can bring a charge against God’s elect since Christ is our advocate as Believers. Jesus is the one who died for Believers and is the only one who condemns. Jesus is our advocate, judge, and Savior.

 

John 3:3
³ Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

 

Titus 3:5
⁵ he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,  

C) This view espouses that Believers are born again (regenerated) the moment that they believe in Jesus. For a Believer to lose his or her salvation he or she would have to be un-regenerated. This view believes that this is little evidence if any at all that a new birth can be taken away.

(Will continue in a 2nd post)

God bless,
GE
 

[GoldenEagle]

(Cont.)

John 14:7
⁷ If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Rom. 8:9
⁹ You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

D) Knowing Jesus is knowing God. This view understand the Holy Spirit to indwell all Believers. Whoever has the Holy Spirit belongs to God. Those who do not have the Holy Spirit do not belong to Jesus.


1 Cor. 12:13
¹³ For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

E) This view understands that the Holy Spirit baptizes all Believers into Christ and brings them into God’s family. For a Believer to become unsaved he or she would have to long be indwelt and would have to be detached from the Church or the Bride of Christ.


John 3:15
¹⁴ And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, ¹⁵ that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
 
F) Whoever believe in Jesus Christ will have eternal life. The idea is that if a person loses their salvation the promises of eternal life in Scripture would be errant.



G) Probably the best argument for this view is what Scripture says itself on the subject through Paul:

Rom. 8:38-39
³⁸ For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, ³⁹ nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This view claims that the same God who saved us is the God who will keep us. Our salvation is eternally secure in His promises!

Hope this helps with the discussion.

God bless,

GE
 

[GoldenEagle]

 

OSAS In my opinion teaches that after baptism you can go on and do whatever you want.

 

But it doesn't teach that, that's where people err.

 

 

Sometimes saying simply "no you are wrong" doesn't really help the other person see your perspective.

 

Is the OSAS position or view a license to sin? This has been brought up in the thread and is often what people point to when objecting to this view. That would be against Scripture. A person who is truly saved by our Savior Jesus Christ would not have a live that is characterized by habitual, continual, and willful sin. (I realize this is long. If tempted to skip over parts simply read the blue stuff. That’s the good stuff anyway. )

 

John 3:16

¹⁶ “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

 

Eph2:8-9

⁸ For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, ⁹ not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

John 14:6

⁶ Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1. The Bible makes it clear above that salvation is through God’s grace alone, as a gift of faith alone, and in Jesus Christ alone.

Gal 3:3

³ Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

2. Paul warns above about trying to obtain salvation through human effort. This view maintains that we are saved through faith in Jesus, maintained through faith in Jesus, and secured through faith in Jesus.

Jude 24

²⁴ Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

3. God maintains our salvation.

John 10:28-29

²⁸ I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. ²⁹ My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

4. God’s hand holds us firmly in His grasp.

Rom. 8:38-39

³⁸ For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, ³⁹ nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

5.  And nothing can separate us from the love of God.

(Cont in next post)

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

(Is OSAS a licences to sin... Continued 1)

6. This view maintains that to deny eternal security is basically a belief that Believers must maintain their own salvation through good works and their own effort. This is argued to be completely contrary to the Biblical concept of God’s provision of salvation by God’s grace  - a free gift we cannot earn.

Romans 4:3-8
³ For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” ⁴ Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. ⁵ And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, ⁶ just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

⁷ “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
    and whose sins are covered;
⁸ blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

7. We are saved because of Jesus and not because of our own merit.

 

Rom. 5:8
⁸ but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Cor. 15:3
³ For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,

2 Cor. 5:21
²¹ For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

8. Jesus’s death on the cross was absolute and sufficient in the payment of all our sins. Those include past, present, and future sins. Sins committed prior to salvation and sins committed after salvation.


2 Cor. 5:17
¹⁷ Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

9. Believers are new creations.

(Cont. in next post)

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

(Is OSAS a licences to sin... Continued 2)



Gal. 5:19-23
¹⁹ Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, ²⁰ idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, ²¹ envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

²² But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, ²³ gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

10. Believers demonstrate the fruit of the spirit and not the flesh.

1 John 3:6-9
⁶ No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. ⁷ Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. ⁸ Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. ⁹ No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

11. The Believer who is truly born again will not live in continual, habitual sin.
 

Rom. 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? ² By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
12. Paul addressed above the idea that grace promotes sin. As Believers in Jesus we are dead to sin and alive in Him.
 

Rom. 6:15-23
¹⁵ What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! ¹⁶ Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? ¹⁷ But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, ¹⁸ and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. ¹⁹ I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
 

²⁰ For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. ²¹ But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. ²² But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. ²³ For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

13. How could a true Believer in Jesus Christ and knowing the price paid for us on the cross go on living a life of sin? We are no longer slaves to our sinful natures but slaves to God in Jesus Christ and His righteousness.
 

So OSAS (eternal security) is not a license to sin but rather it is the security of knowing that God’s love is guaranteed for those who believe in Jesus. The argument then is that a person who continuously and habitually demonstrates the fruit of the flesh instead of the fruit of the spirit has not truly experienced salvation that can only be found in Jesus Christ.

Do you better understand this perspective Godspells? I hope this helps.

God bless,
GE