Matthew 24, for Jews or for Christians?

[Stormcrow]

Paul's gathering is still in our future

 

Then why did he also write this to them?

 

Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Thessalonians 1:1 (NASB)

 

This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.  For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,  and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,  dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8 (NASB)

 

Paul was writing specifically to the Thessalonians, as is clear in verse 1.  Are you a member of that church to whom he addressed that letter?  If not, he was not writing to you.

 

Next, he included himself in the afflictions which they were suffering?  Has the apostle Paul ever shared in any of your afflictions?  If not, he did not write this to you.

 

In order to properly understand apostolic eschatology, you must understand it through the eyes of those to whom it was written in the time during which it was written.  To do otherwise is to rip Paul's words completely out of context.

[Stormcrow]

That theory sounds good to people that do not know the scriptures...

 

I'm fairly certain my knowledge of the scriptures is at least as good as yours. 

 

...there is yet remaining the FINAL or 70th week of Daniel's 70 weeks.

 

I think both Daniel and the apostle John would disagree with you:

 

But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end...” Daniel 12:4 (NIV2011)

 

Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near." Revelation 22:10 (NIV2011)

 

If the time of the end was near (literally "at hand") to John in 68 AD, when he wrote these words, it cannot possibly be "at hand" to us living 2,000 years later.

 

The "end" to which Daniel, Jesus, and John pointed was the end of the Mosaic Age and the Temple by which it was signified.

[Guest]

2 Thessalonians 2:1   Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

 

We are gathered together, at the same time.

 

We are not part of the "we" to whom Paul wrote. 

 

Unless you are a member of that Thessalonian church that lived 2,000 years ago,

 

Paul didn't write this to you, me,

 

or anyone else living now. 

 

~

 

Why Yes, Yes We Are Part Of The Church~!

 

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

 

One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

 

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:4-6

 

~

 

Beloved, Although One May Deny God's Word Came To Us

Down Through Dear Brother Saul

 

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

 

"We" Know Better

 

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

 

Thank You LORD Jesus~!

 

What advantage then hath the Jew?

 

or what profit is there of circumcision?

 

Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. Romans 3:1-2

[Stormcrow]

Why Yes, Yes We Are Part Of The Church~!

 

So if the letters Paul wrote to the Thessalonians are also written to us living 2,000 years later, is this also written to us?

 

Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, To Philemon our beloved brother and fellow worker,  and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house:  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Philemon 1:1-3 (NASB)

 

If we are all part of the church, and I write a letter to my wife, does that mean you get to read it?  Does it mean anything and everything in it also applies to you??? 

 

If I write a letter to a church in another state, and we are all part of the church, does that mean everything I've written in it is subject to your scrutiny?

 

Paul wrote letters to specific people at specific times for specific reasons and none of those letters were addressed to us.  Now, we can certainly gain important understanding about our own spiritual walk from Paul's inspired words, but we cannot properly interpret his words if we assume that he was writing to us.  That is not the way to interpret any ancient text!

[OneLight]

 

Why Yes, Yes We Are Part Of The Church~!

 

So if the letters Paul wrote to the Thessalonians are also written to us living 2,000 years later, is this also written to us?

 

Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, To Philemon our beloved brother and fellow worker,  and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house:  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Philemon 1:1-3 (NASB)

 

If we are all part of the church, and I write a letter to my wife, does that mean you get to read it?  Does it mean anything and everything in it also applies to you??? 

 

If I write a letter to a church in another state, and we are all part of the church, does that mean everything I've written in it is subject to your scrutiny?

 

Paul wrote letters to specific people at specific times for specific reasons and none of those letters were addressed to us.  Now, we can certainly gain important understanding about our own spiritual walk from Paul's inspired words, but we cannot properly interpret his words if we assume that he was writing to us.  That is not the way to interpret any ancient text!

 

 

We are in Him and He is in us.  His words are for every generation that are His.  Wisdom exposes what is specifically for a specific time or people and what is for all.  Paul's writings are for all.  Even if it is history, there are lessons to be learned.

[Salty]

 

14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

7) Would you say that is a good hint as to when the end will come?

 

 

Actually, given the context of the entire passage you cited, it does.  The disciples heard Christ tell the religious leaders only hours before that their "house would be left desolate" (Matthew 23:38) and that the "house" to which He was referring was, in fact, the Temple (Matthew 24:1-2).  They clearly associated the end of the age with the destruction of the Temple in their private questioning of Him (Matthew 24:3) and He did not correct them.  Instead, He gave them signs as to when they could expect to see His coming at the end of the age, the last of which is cited above.

 

By the time Paul had written his letters to the Romans and Colossians, Paul wrote that Christ's words in Matthew 24:14 had, indeed, been fulfilled, and he wrote it not once or twice but several times.

 

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. Romans 1:8 (NIV2011)

 

But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” Romans 10:18 (NIV2011)

 

but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; Romans 16:26 (NASB)

 

because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel  which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth; Colossians 1:5-6 (NASB)

 

if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. Colossians 1:23 (NASB)

 

The "end" of the Mosaic Age (or covenant, if you will) came in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple and the city, when the "power of the Holy people was shattered." (Daniel 12:7).  That is what the Olivet Discourse was all about and that is what the entire letter to the seven churches in Asia (Revelation) was all about: the end of one age and the beginning of another.

 

 

So... the following has already been fulfilled???

 

Matt.24

²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Mark 13

²⁶ And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

²⁷ And then shall he send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

 

Per the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.), the Romans did not setup any "abomination of desolation" in the temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D.; the temple burned down before they could even get possession of it!

 

There was no pseudo-Christ being proclaimed sitting in the "secret chambers" in 70 A.D. either!

 

Nor did our Lord Jesus come in the clouds with all eyes seeing Him, per Rev.1:7, not has He yet to gather His saints today.

 

It's very obvious then, that you are NOT following God's Word there, but are only pushing a doctrine of men, specifically men's tradition of Preterism which believes those Olivet Discourse signs were fulfilled in the days of Christ's Apostles, which is a lie. And the worst lie of men's Preterism is 'Full Preterism', which DENIES that there will be a literal 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus back to this earth where He ascended from, as per Acts 1 and Zech.14.

 

In other words, that doctrine of Preterism is NOT even a Christian Doctrine, it is NOT of God's Word. It is a doctrine of a group of men who seek to create their OWN copy of Christ's coming Kingdom here on earth today, WITHOUT CHRIST JESUS, so THEY can think to have it for their own selves!

[Guest]

Why Yes, Yes We Are Part Of The Church~!

 

So if the letters Paul wrote to the Thessalonians are also written to us living 2,000 years later, is this also written to us....

but we cannot properly interpret his words if we assume that he was writing to us.....

 

That is not the way to interpret any ancient text....

 

~

 

No Buts

 

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Luke 4:4

 

God's Words

 

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16

 

Are For All Who Has Ears To Hear

 

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Isaiah 29:11-12

 

And His Words Are Eternal

 

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

 

Despite What Men

 

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

 

May Say

 

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Genesis 3:1(a-c)

 

~

 

Believe

 

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

 

And Be Blessed Beloved

 

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11

 

Love, Joe

[Stormcrow]

Even if it is history, there are lessons to be learned.

 

Yes, this is absolutely true, however, this is a far, far different statement than to suggest Paul's letters were written to us.  All you have to do is look at the titles of the letters he wrote to see that it's clear that Paul did not write a single letter to us.

 

For anyone to suggest that he did is the basis for much error in the church today.

[Stormcrow]

So... the following has already been fulfilled???

 

What did Jesus say?

 

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:14 (NIV2011)

 

And what did Paul write again???

 

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. Romans 1:8 (NIV2011)

 

But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” Romans 10:18 (NIV2011)

 

but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; Romans 16:26 (NASB)

 

because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel  which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth; Colossians 1:5-6 (NASB)

 

if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. Colossians 1:23 (NASB)

 

Jesus said it.  I believe it.  That settles it.  It is not up to me to interpret His words any other way than they are clearly recorded.  If it means I have to adjust my understanding to conform to His Word, so be it.

[Stormcrow]

Are For All Who Has Ears To Hear

 

Yes. But they were not written to us.

 

Are you a Phillipian?  Colossian?  Roman?  Were you a member of one of the seven churches to whom John wrote???

 

If not, these letters were not written to you.  There are universal truths we can learn from them, but the letters themselves were not written to us. 

 

And again, as long as people persist in believing they are, error in interpretation will be unavoidable.