Did Jesus reject anyone who desired Him?

[Guest]

In both Luke and Matthew two men come to Jesus offering to follow him; yet Jesus' response is hardly enthusiastic.  

 

One asks first to bury his parents (as required by Jewish Law).  

 

The other is given the rather cryptic warning about foxes and holes. 

 

~

 

Beloved It Seems Some Folk Want Jesus On Their Own Terms

 

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. Matthew 10:38

 

And Some Folk Want To Do A Jesus Makeover

 

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matthew 15:9

 

But Believers Cleave To The Jesus

 

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22

 

Of The Bible

 

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

 

If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

 

Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people. Deuteronomy 32:39-43

 

You See

[a-seeker]

Conner, you are equating the lack of action on the two to Jesus rejecting them. That is far from the truth. Jesus never rejected anyone. As for discipleship, those who are disciples today do so even though Jesus is not physically present. I am sure there were many disciples in Jesus day that were not part of His chosen, all of which became Apostles (His chosen).

 

I am sure that you are not reading what I have actually written; is it not clear, or do you insist on misrepresenting what I have said because you have an opinion of me? AS far as I can tell, you are responding negatively to the exact opposite of everything I posted: which is another way of saying you agree with me, but don't know it.

 

I revised a few things above; perhaps they will clarify.

 

clb

Edited August 31, 2014 by ConnorLiamBrown

[OneLight]

Conner, you are equating the lack of action on the two to Jesus rejecting them. That is far from the truth. Jesus never rejected anyone. As for discipleship, those who are disciples today do so even though Jesus is not physically present. I am sure there were many disciples in Jesus day that were not part of His chosen, all of which became Apostles (His chosen).

 

I am sure that you are not reading what I have actually written; is it not clear, or do you insist on misrepresenting what I have said because you have an opinion of me? AS far as I can tell, you are responding negatively to the exact opposite of everything I posted: which is another way of saying you agree with me, but don't know it.

 

I revised a few things above; perhaps they will clarify.

 

clb

I go by what you post.

It seems that these men did not understand what discipleship was, and so were initially turned down

I play no games nor do I skirt lines. You say they were turned away, I say the chose not to follow. I asked you to show scripture of Jesus turning people down that wanted to follow Him and you provide me with verses showing that they chose not to.

So I ask again, is there scripture where Jesus turned people away that wanted to follow Him outside of sending the multiple home at night?

[a-seeker]

 

 

Conner, you are equating the lack of action on the two to Jesus rejecting them. That is far from the truth. Jesus never rejected anyone. As for discipleship, those who are disciples today do so even though Jesus is not physically present. I am sure there were many disciples in Jesus day that were not part of His chosen, all of which became Apostles (His chosen).

 

I am sure that you are not reading what I have actually written; is it not clear, or do you insist on misrepresenting what I have said because you have an opinion of me? AS far as I can tell, you are responding negatively to the exact opposite of everything I posted: which is another way of saying you agree with me, but don't know it.

 

I revised a few things above; perhaps they will clarify.

 

clb

 

I go by what you post.

It seems that these men did not understand what discipleship was, and so were initially turned down

I play no games nor do I skirt lines. You say they were turned away, I say the chose not to follow. I asked you to show scripture of Jesus turning people down that wanted to follow Him and you provide me with verses showing that they chose not to.

So I ask again, is there scripture where Jesus turned people away that wanted to follow Him outside of sending the multiple home at night?

 

 

I see,

 

So why didn't Jesus allow the man to bury his parents and then join him.  It was required by Jewish Law.  Elijah allowed Elisha to say goodbye to his parents.  Obviously had Jesus said, "Yes, go bury your parents then join me" there would be no question here; I would never have even thought of this verse.  But that is not what we have.  So, we can put this on a spectrum of hypothetical alternatives: at one end we have Jesus permitting the burial of the man's parents, and the man deciding afterwards that, in fact, he did not want to follow Jesus. This would match your evaluation perfectly, Jesus was purely passive; in the middle we have Jesus not allowing the burial (which is what we actually have): that is, the man was perfectly willing to follow Jesus, he just wanted to bury his parents, Jesus said No (that is not passive); at the far end we have the man willing to leave his dead parents, but Jesus STILL not permitting him to follow.

 

No one here obviously is pushing the last; but neither do we have the first.  What we have is exactly the situation I suggested as a parallel to KK. The context of my reference dealt with a specific situation.  We had a person who was going to church for the wrong reason and knew it and didn't care, and in fact didn't really want to continue attending church (he was rather muddled and contradictory).  I suggested he let church be for a while.  It was insinuated that I was acting as spokesperson for Satan.  I cited an instance where Jesus himself would not take disciples because they approached him from the wrong direction. I suggested that this was in fact to their benefit. 

 

Now if all that was a little jumbled I will present it in the form of a question, "When the man requested to bury his parents as required by Jewish law, did Jesus say 'Yes'?"  This is a simple yes or no question.

 

 

You can turn this into a semantic debate over technicalities; I can play along.  But all of this is out of context. 

 

 

clb

Edited September 1, 2014 by ConnorLiamBrown

[OneLight]

 

 

 

Conner, you are equating the lack of action on the two to Jesus rejecting them. That is far from the truth. Jesus never rejected anyone. As for discipleship, those who are disciples today do so even though Jesus is not physically present. I am sure there were many disciples in Jesus day that were not part of His chosen, all of which became Apostles (His chosen).

 

I am sure that you are not reading what I have actually written; is it not clear, or do you insist on misrepresenting what I have said because you have an opinion of me? AS far as I can tell, you are responding negatively to the exact opposite of everything I posted: which is another way of saying you agree with me, but don't know it.

 

I revised a few things above; perhaps they will clarify.

 

clb

 

I go by what you post.

It seems that these men did not understand what discipleship was, and so were initially turned down

I play no games nor do I skirt lines. You say they were turned away, I say the chose not to follow. I asked you to show scripture of Jesus turning people down that wanted to follow Him and you provide me with verses showing that they chose not to.

So I ask again, is there scripture where Jesus turned people away that wanted to follow Him outside of sending the multiple home at night?

 

 

I see,

 

So why didn't Jesus allow the man to bury his parents and then join him.  It was required by Jewish Law.  Elijah allowed Elisha to say goodbye to his parents.  Obviously had Jesus said, "Yes, go bury your parents then join me" there would be no question here; I would never have even thought of this verse.  But that is not what we have.  So, we can put this on a spectrum of hypothetical alternatives: at one end we have Jesus permitting the burial of the man's parents, and the man deciding afterwards that, in fact, he did not want to follow Jesus. This would match your evaluation perfectly, Jesus was purely passive; in the middle we have Jesus not allowing the burial (which is what we actually have): that is, the man was perfectly willing to follow Jesus, he just wanted to bury his parents, Jesus said No (that is not passive); at the far end we have the man willing to leave his dead parents, but Jesus STILL not permitting him to follow.

 

 

You are wrong, Jesus is not passive, but holds to scripture and moves accordingly.  Remember how He chased the sellers out of the temple?  How He spoke to the Pharisees, Sadducee and scribes?  You have no idea how I see Christ and I reject your assumption that what you say is true.  You also forgot one thing.  Jesus knew the hearts of each and knew they were not willing to die to themselves or the world.  He just brought what was dearest to their heart into the open so they would make a heart felt decision.  Jesus never rejected them, they rejected Him.  Nowhere did Jesus say "No".  He always gave them a choice, so your adding your personal twist to scripture to cover your false teaching will not be spun.

 

No one here obviously is pushing the last; but neither do we have the first.  What we have is exactly the situation I suggested as a parallel to KK. The context of my reference dealt with a specific situation.  We had a person who was going to church for the wrong reason and knew it and didn't care, and in fact didn't really want to continue attending church (he was rather muddled and contradictory).  I suggested he let church be for a while.  It was insinuated that I was acting as spokesperson for Satan.  I cited an instance where Jesus himself would not take disciples because they approached him from the wrong direction. I suggested that this was in fact to their benefit.

 

What you did was suggest he leave the only place he probably was being taught the truth.  You have no idea if God was using the body of Christ to draw him closer.   You are removing him from being fed while believing you have the right answer.  You could of suggested that he seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but you didn't.  Instead of pointing to Christ, you pointed to your philosophy, sending him to secular counseling.

 

Now if all that was a little jumbled I will present it in the form of a question, "When the man requested to bury his parents as required by Jewish law, did Jesus say 'Yes'?"  This is a simple yes or no question.

 

 

You can turn this into a semantic debate over technicalities; I can play along.  But all of this is out of context. 

 

 

clb

 

No, it is not a yes or no question. God never forces anyone.   Again, you twist the meaning of His words to cover yourself.  Jesus said, and I stand on:

 

Matthew 8:21-22

 

Then another of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.”

But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

Jesus gave him a choice and set a precedence. Later, we read in Matthew 10:37-38

 

He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

[a-seeker]

 

 

 

 

Conner, you are equating the lack of action on the two to Jesus rejecting them. That is far from the truth. Jesus never rejected anyone. As for discipleship, those who are disciples today do so even though Jesus is not physically present. I am sure there were many disciples in Jesus day that were not part of His chosen, all of which became Apostles (His chosen).

 

I am sure that you are not reading what I have actually written; is it not clear, or do you insist on misrepresenting what I have said because you have an opinion of me? AS far as I can tell, you are responding negatively to the exact opposite of everything I posted: which is another way of saying you agree with me, but don't know it.

 

I revised a few things above; perhaps they will clarify.

 

clb

 

I go by what you post.

It seems that these men did not understand what discipleship was, and so were initially turned down

I play no games nor do I skirt lines. You say they were turned away, I say the chose not to follow. I asked you to show scripture of Jesus turning people down that wanted to follow Him and you provide me with verses showing that they chose not to.

So I ask again, is there scripture where Jesus turned people away that wanted to follow Him outside of sending the multiple home at night?

 

 

I see,

 

So why didn't Jesus allow the man to bury his parents and then join him.  It was required by Jewish Law.  Elijah allowed Elisha to say goodbye to his parents.  Obviously had Jesus said, "Yes, go bury your parents then join me" there would be no question here; I would never have even thought of this verse.  But that is not what we have.  So, we can put this on a spectrum of hypothetical alternatives: at one end we have Jesus permitting the burial of the man's parents, and the man deciding afterwards that, in fact, he did not want to follow Jesus. This would match your evaluation perfectly, Jesus was purely passive; in the middle we have Jesus not allowing the burial (which is what we actually have): that is, the man was perfectly willing to follow Jesus, he just wanted to bury his parents, Jesus said No (that is not passive); at the far end we have the man willing to leave his dead parents, but Jesus STILL not permitting him to follow.

 

 

You are wrong, Jesus is not passive, but holds to scripture and moves accordingly.  Remember how He chased the sellers out of the temple?  How He spoke to the Pharisees, Saducees and scribes?  You hav eno idea how I see Christ and I reject your assumption that what you say is true.  You also forgot one thing.  Jesus knew the hearts of each and knew they were not willing to die to themselves or the world.  He just brought what was dearest to their heart into the open so they would make a heart felt decision.  Jesus never rejected them, they rejected Him.  Nowhere did Jesus say "No".  He always gave them a choice so your adding your personal twist to scripture to cover your false teaching.

 

No one here obviously is pushing the last; but neither do we have the first.  What we have is exactly the situation I suggested as a parallel to KK. The context of my reference dealt with a specific situation.  We had a person who was going to church for the wrong reason and knew it and didn't care, and in fact didn't really want to continue attending church (he was rather muddled and contradictory).  I suggested he let church be for a while.  It was insinuated that I was acting as spokesperson for Satan.  I cited an instance where Jesus himself would not take disciples because they approached him from the wrong direction. I suggested that this was in fact to their benefit.

 

What you did was suggest he leave the only place he probably was being taught the truth.  You are playing God in this instance, removing him from being fed and believing you have the right answer.  You could of suggested that he seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but you didn't.  Instead of pointing to Christ, you pointed to your philosophy, sending him to secular counseling.

 

Now if all that was a little jumbled I will present it in the form of a question, "When the man requested to bury his parents as required by Jewish law, did Jesus say 'Yes'?"  This is a simple yes or no question.

 

 

You can turn this into a semantic debate over technicalities; I can play along.  But all of this is out of context. 

 

 

clb

 

No, it is not a yes or no question.  Again, you twist the meaning of His words to cover yourself.  Jesus said, and I stand on:

 

Matthew 8:21-22

 

Then another of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.”

But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

Jesus gave him a choice and set precedence. Later, we read in Matthew 10:37-38

 

He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

 

 

 

You do not read me to understand, One Light.  It is tiresome. If this continues I will ahve to ignore your responses to me.

 

You are wrong, Jesus is not passive, but holds to scripture and moves accordingly.  Remember how He chased the sellers out of the temple?  How He spoke to the Pharisees, Saducees and scribes?  You hav eno idea how I see Christ and I reject your assumption that what you say is true.  You also forgot one thing.  Jesus knew the hearts of each and knew they were not willing to die to themselves or the world.  He just brought what was dearest to their heart into the open so they would make a heart felt decision.  Jesus never rejected them, they rejected Him.  Nowhere did Jesus say "No".  He always gave them a choice so your adding your personal twist to scripture to cover your false teaching.

 

 

I did not say Jesus was passive; I said in a hypothetical alternative (hypothetical means it didn't actually happen) he would have been passive--the choice to join him would have been entirely on their side without qualification.  That didn't happen.  Jesus set down qualifications.  In short, I was pointing out that in the actual situation, Jesus wasn't passive.   Your response: you slam me with a reminder that Jesus isn't passive?!!!!!

 

Once more, you insist on using the term "reject" which I again and again and again have "rejected".  Jesus didn't reject them.  He refused them immediate discipleship.  The situation is a matter of logic.  Did the men wish to be Jesus' disciples?  Yes.  Did they have certain erroroneous ideas about discipleship?  Yes.  Would Jesus allow them discipleship so long as they clung to those erroneous ideas (which, by the by, with the second man, were actually good intentions--burying one's parents fell under the commandment Honor father and mother)?  No.  

 

 

 

And No, whatever church he was attending is not the only place where God can work on his heart; my God is bigger than buildings.  Is yours?  Do you even know what doctrines that church was teaching?  Do you know anything about the church? I don't.  Elsewhere it was implied that his and his ex's relationship crossed physical boundaries--did his church condone such things?

 

I recommended counseling.  For all I know the counselor him/herself might be a Christian.

 

And No, I offered leaving the church as an opinion, and admitted I might be wrong.  No, I am not playing God. I know that you are a servant on this forum; probably you feel it is your duty to save people.  It isn't.  That's God's job and I think He is quite equal to the task.  I admit I have a very low estimate of my role in saving people; that is God's job.  My job is to be honest.  I honestly believe that leaving that church for a time might be the best way for him to return.  I have given perfectly good reasons for this.  I have quoted such wise minds in this regard as C.S. Lewis.  I could easily accuse you of playing God by limiting God's influence to a building.  I know it sounds so much more pious to keep saying things like, keep praying, keep going to church; but all of this places so much weight on the subject's side.  I put more weight on God's side of the equation.  Our search for God is merely the corollary of God's search for us. Perhas I did not make it explicit that whether he stay or go, I think he will still be in God's hand.  i.e. I was not recommending him leave God, but a building.  God will be working on him regardless.  I simply know from experience, mine and others, that what appears to us to be a man leaving God.....BUT I HAVE SAID THIS ALREADY!

 

clb

 

(And I am serious OneLight, if you continue to misread what I write I will ignore you. I know I have pushed buttons elsewhere on inerrancy and Genesis 1 and 2, and many here would love it if I just left this forum.  I suspect one or two would praise God if they heard that some calamity befell me which rendered me incapable of posting--lost my limbs, or my life: and so a thought... If nothing would please you more than that I leave these forums, recommend other Christian sites that also promote discussion and I will check them out.  If they are good, then I promise, you will never see me again on this site).

[gdemoss]

The truth is simple. Jesus is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. Jesus himself spoke of a day when he would reject people who came to him. Being the same always then under the right conditions Jesus will reject people. There is no arguing that point. Jesus like the father rejects peo0le. Plain and simple. I reject people too. Just as I understand these two also do. I want to be as my Father in heaven. God also hates as it is written Esau have I hated. Many people are going to be shocked when they meet Jesus and he is not who they thought he was.