Do secular individuals exhibit faith?

[Bonky]

Is it really a different faith? Perhaps you don't have an emotional investment to continue to believe in a naturalistic explanation, but many Secularists do (they sometimes have a zeal that is almost religious). I think what we see is that on both sides of the fence there are people along the whole faith spectrum. In other words, amongst Christians you will run across people who just accept the Bible because that's what they've grown up with, they believe it without substance per se (the blind faith that Enoch describes). On the other end of the spectrum, there are many who have come across substantial evidence in support of the Biblical record and have chosen to believe it as God's word.

Similarly, there are many Secularists who have not examined a lick of evidence, but blindly follow the opinion of scientists. This is blind faith. There are others who delve into the evidence which purportedly supports a Secular worldview and have a more substantial faith in Naturalism, but it's still faith in the unproved and unprovable. My point is, the discussion of origins is not faith vs. science, but faith vs. faith. It's Christian faith vs Secular faith.

Ehud

The two main points of contention that I have about faith are:

1. What evidence is there to warrant the belief in things like: angels/demons, heaven, afterlife etc? [i haven't been presented with evidence for these things]

*2. I reject a belief system that automatically rejects potential "evidence to the contrary".

Now with regard to science, I often defer to scientists with regard to many things. It isn't because I have unwavering faith in them, it is mainly because I don't have the background [education] to question them. I assume that they are right about all kinds of things, but I certainly don't demand that they're right. If they are wrong, it really doesn't impact me all that much. Religion is different in that sense, being wrong is a major impact, dare I say it's life changing [in a negative way].

* For example: "By definition, no apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record."

--Answersingenesis.org

Edited September 29, 2014 by Bonky

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Bonky...

   If you ever met a demon you may have a very different set of beliefs,especially when your life is spared & you witness the King of kings in all His Glory come to your rescue........I do not wish the experience on anyone but I can testify that they are as real as you & I,,,,,,even more so,for us,,,,we are words that appear on a screen and their is no other evidence of our presence.......but yet you believe I exist?

    The Words that you see in the Bible are the Living Word of God & He is alive in them as much(if not mere)than I am in mine.........the evidence you hope for does lie in what you cannot see and that hope is in Christ Jesus....He is our Living Redeemer ,Bonky,my friend,,,,,,not some distant god that is out of reach or that is hiding somewhere.........He WILL reveal Homself to you if you earnestly seek Him & when He does that will be all the evidence you will ever need

    I cannot prove Gods existance to you,only He can give you the fulfillment you need to believe & have faith.......but that liitle voice inside you that has lead you here & prompts you to ask all this questions & engage in all this discussions is a "measure of faith" that God has given each of us....keep seeking,asking,looking ,knocking.........& keep your heart open to receive the Love kof Christ,He is calling you to Himself.....or I do not think you would still be here

    May God keep drawing you unto Himself Bonky,you are in my prayers & in my heart

                                                                       With love-in Christ,Kwik 

[Bonky]

The Bible sheds ample light on "Christian" not "Religious" Faith:

 

(Hebrews 11:1) "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

 

Christian Faith:  has substance and evidence.

Ok, I see you claiming this but I don't see how/where you demonstrated this. I don't think I understand what "substance" you are referring to. Maybe if you can shed more light on that it would help.

[kwikphilly]

Bonky...

    That substance is the true nature of things,the meat,the heart of it all,the WORD....Jesus,He is our hope.......In the beginning was the WORD & the WORD was made flesh & the WORD was with GOD & the WORD is GOD......read the Gospel according to John     it may help you have a better understanding                            With love,in Christ-Kwik

[Enoch2021]

 

The Bible sheds ample light on "Christian" not "Religious" Faith:

 

(Hebrews 11:1) "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

 

Christian Faith:  has substance and evidence.

Ok, I see you claiming this but I don't see how/where you demonstrated this. I don't think I understand what "substance" you are referring to. Maybe if you can shed more light on that it would help.

 

 

===========================================================================================

 

It was in the second half of the same post that you got the quote (above) from, here....

 

(Romans 1:20) "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

 

IMHO, this is speaking to: Specific Complexity, Irreducible Complexity, "CODE" Information.

 

DNA/RNA/"Functional Proteins" NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.

It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE.

That's just the Hardware!

 

DNA "CODE"/Software------------------Design(Intelligence)--------------------Designer!

 

To refute:

1. Prove that the Genetic CODE is not....."CODE"/Software. OR....

2. Prove that Atoms/Molecules have Sentience and Intelligence.

 

If "nature" can't accomplish these (and it can't, Validated Repeatedly by Actual Experiments, Common Sense, and known Scientific Law)...what's the recourse?

 

 

Are you asking for further elaboration and explanation for each?

[Bonky]

Ok, I see you claiming this but I don't see how/where you demonstrated this. I don't think I understand what "substance" you are referring to. Maybe if you can shed more light on that it would help.

 

===========================================================================================

 

It was in the second half of the same post that you got the quote (above) from, here....

 

(Romans 1:20) "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

 

IMHO, this is speaking to: Specific Complexity, Irreducible Complexity, "CODE" Information.

 

DNA/RNA/"Functional Proteins" NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.

It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE.

That's just the Hardware!

 

DNA "CODE"/Software------------------Design(Intelligence)--------------------Designer!

 

To refute:

1. Prove that the Genetic CODE is not....."CODE"/Software. OR....

2. Prove that Atoms/Molecules have Sentience and Intelligence.

 

If "nature" can't accomplish these (and it can't, Validated Repeatedly by Actual Experiments, Common Sense, and known Scientific Law)...what's the recourse?

 

 

Are you asking for further elaboration and explanation for each?

What I would want to see or understand is WHY you credit the Bible [assuming it speaks of this being] with this code that you reference? For arguments sake, I'll give you that DNA cannot occur w/o an intelligent being...why should I think that the Bible speaks of this intelligence? Then for arguments sake, even if you convince me the Bible speaks of this intelligence, why would I then also conclude heaven is real or that angels and demons exist?

So I understand that YOU credit the Bible [using Romans 1:20] suggesting that it hints to DNA, but I don't understand WHY you do. What is the link? How do I know it's not just you giving credit to the God/being that you prefer?

Edited September 29, 2014 by Bonky

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

==============================================================================================================

 

"What I would want to see or understand is WHY you credit the Bible [assuming it speaks of this being] with this code that you reference?"

 

"This "Code" I reference", is the Genetic "CODE"...the sine qua non of life.

 

It's a Good Question, there's a couple of Steps:

 

Step 1.  You only have 2 choices as to HOW we are here: Random Chance (Nature) or Intelligent Design (GOD). The Laws of Physics, Chemistry/Biochemistry, Information, Specific Complexity, Irreducible Complexity, and Common Sense Rule Nature out...Laughingly so. If you summarily rule one of the choices out.... where does it leave you?

Based on the Law of Non-Contradiction--- 2 things that are contradictory can't be responsible @ the same time (or do you disagree?).  It's better stated as: either Randomness or Intelligent Design Created us and the Universe. This is not a False Dichotomy (Bifurcation Fallacy) because there is no THIRD CHOICE. Now if I summarily refute Randomness the choice MUST BE ID. You may then conjure thousands of possibilities under ID; however, it has ZERO to do with the tenets of first postulate.

 

Since we've established Intelligent Design which you have agreed with...."I'll give you that DNA cannot occur w/o an intelligent being"., we then move to Step II....

 

Step 2.  Here:

 

why should I think that the Bible speaks of this intelligence?

 

It doesn't speak to "The CODE" specifically,. but Intelligence comes from a mind....

 

(Romans 11:34) "For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?"

 

This then follows after establishing Step 1 and 2 above.

 

 

why would I then also conclude heaven is real or that angels and demons exist?

 

After the establishment of Steps 1 and 2, then Intelligence of course, then the Bible Authenticates itself.  That's when "Faith" kicks in.  I personally have never seen Heaven, Angels, or Demons...I don't have to, to know that it's Absolute Fact....if HE says it, That's it for me.... That's Faith, IMHO.

 

 

So I understand that YOU credit the Bible [using Romans 1:20] suggesting that it hints to DNA, but I don't understand WHY you do. What is the link?

 

IMHO, it hints to DNA, Specific Complexity, and Irreducible Complexity.  The Link is "Intelligence"...because that's the sole reason the: "CODE", Specific Complexity, and Irreducible Complexity....Exist. 

 

 

"How do I know it's not just you giving credit to the God/being that you prefer?"

 

See Steps 1, 2, and Intelligence.

[Bonky]

It doesn't speak to "The CODE" specifically,. but Intelligence comes from a mind....

 

(Romans 11:34) "For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?"

 

This then follows after establishing Step 1 and 2 above.

I really fail to see what Romans 11:34 has to do with the topic. It seems to me the verse is essentially saying "who is smarter than God?", I don't see how that is at all useful in this topic. I see you trying to establish that the Universe was created by what you call God, but I'm not seeing how the Bible is identified as the source of our knowledge of this being. You mention "prophecy" but I don't see anything there.

Daniel 9:25 "Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

I see nothing about Jesus. Show me a prophecy that gives good details on what exactly is going to happen, when and how. Short of that, you can make anything sound like a prophecy fulfilled [eventually].

[Enoch2021]

 

It doesn't speak to "The CODE" specifically,. but Intelligence comes from a mind....

 

(Romans 11:34) "For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?"

 

This then follows after establishing Step 1 and 2 above.

I really fail to see what Romans 11:34 has to do with the topic. It seems to me the verse is essentially saying "who is smarter than God?", I don't see how that is at all useful in this topic. I see you trying to establish that the Universe was created by what you call God, but I'm not seeing how the Bible is identified as the source of our knowledge of this being. You mention "prophecy" but I don't see anything there.

Daniel 9:25 "Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

I see nothing about Jesus. Show me a prophecy that gives good details on what exactly is going to happen, when and how. Short of that, you can make anything sound like a prophecy fulfilled [eventually].

 

 

 

====================================================================================

 

I really fail to see what Romans 11:34 has to do with the topic.

 

It was used to show:  Mind-----> Intelligence-------> "CODE" nothing more.

 

 

but I'm not seeing how the Bible is identified as the source of our knowledge of this being.

 

Well the LORD instructed: Moses, Daniel, David, Isaiah, Paul, et al to write these things down.  For this purpose...

 

(2 Timothy 3:14-17) "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;  {15} And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.  {16} All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:  {17} That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

 

It's what we call The WORD and The Holy Bible.

 

You mention "prophecy" but I don't see anything there.

 

It takes some time, attention to detail, and ciphering:

 

(Daniel 9:25) "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

 

This Scripture gave us an Equation     

 

These are Seventy Weeks of years.  We in our current time are in the interval between the 69th and 70th week.  Once that 70th week hits, the last 7 year period, well..... that's for another study

Verse 25 is astounding because the Angel Gabriel is predicting when Jesus will ride into Jerusalem and pronounce his Kingship the first time.   Which just happened to be April 6, 32 AD.  Lets see how accurate Gabriel was with his message 500 years before it happened... just in case you're wondering about the 360 day year below, that's the way all Calendars were constructed in those days.  Lets continue:  "seven weeks, and threescore and 2 weeks" = 69 weeks

69 (weeks) x 7 (days in a week) x 360 days= 173,880 days (From the Decree to rebuild Jerusalem to Jesus Triumphal Entry)

The decree to rebuild Jerusalem was ordered by Artaxerses Longimanus 14 March, 445 BC (SEE: Sir Robert Anderson, The Coming Prince).  From 445 BC to 32 AD is 173,740 days.  March 14 to April 6th is 24 days.  So that gives us 173,764 days.  Shocking how close it was....Prophecy 173,880, reality 173,764.  GOD was close, good try.....ah but wait   What did we forget....LEAP YEAR DAYS!!  How many, well that would be exactly 116 days.  so 173,764 days + 116 days =

173,880 Days!!!

What was Gabriel's margin of error?? ......  = ZERO!!

 

(Daniel 9:26) "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

 

This is saying after the "threescore and two weeks" (The 173,880 Days/Triumphal Entry) the "Messiah be cut off" (cut off = Executed).  "But not for himself"----for who?...All of mankind. 

Then "the people of the prince that shall come"----Daniels "little horn" of Chapter 7....The people are the Romans (we know this in Retrospect but it's the final Kingdom----Rome {The Iron Legs of Daniel Chapter 2 and the great and Terrible Beast of Daniel Chapter 7}).  This has some cross-over with Revelation and The Last Days and can be a bit confusing...if you wish to learn more, let me know, but I'll leave it for now.

 

They (The Romans) will, "destroy the city and the sanctuary".....the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.  The 5th, 10th, 12th, and 15th Roman Legions destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD.

 

These are just a few of 1800 or so Prophecies in Scripture.  Most are quite detailed...just like these.  Incidentally, Christ gave a Prophecy connected with this destruction in Luke....

 

(Luke 21:20-21) " And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.  {21}  Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto."

 

Turns out that No "Christians" died in the siege, they flee'd. Interestingly, when the Romans were preparing to attack, there was a 9 month Hiatus due to the fact that Nero Died during this time and Titus Vespasian (The Commander... had to return to Rome, He eventually became the Ruler) and Left his Son in charge.  So the Armies were positioned on the outskirts...when the Christians seen this...They Got out of Dodge!

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Bonky...

     I have to admire the efforts of Enoch,he is wonderfully patient & ever so persistant(as always)with anyone with questions that challenge Gods existence & such,,,,,,,God Bless him!!!!!

     My friend,you seem like a very nice person to me & I really do love talking with you ,you are respectful and courteous and quite pleasant ,,,,,,but Bonky,please try to understand what I am about to say because it comes from love & sincerity.......without revelation from the Holy Spirit & his convicting your heart you are not going to have Wisdom & Understanding to receive Gods Timeless Truth,the things of God cannot be seen or heard by a carnal mind,no matter how knowledgable you may be..........

       By logic & intellect man cannot grasp Heavenly things ,Eternal things...............I plead with you ,open your heart to receive,ask the God you are in doubt about if He will reveal Himself to you............You do believe the historical Jesus,right?Do you think you might need a Savior?Do you believe any of it?Will you try asking Jesus to help you?Bonky ,if I could only give you a little glimpse of the world that will open up to you by an encounter Jesus,you will think you lived in a dark igloo in the winter months of Alaska & suddenly the sun came out,,,,,,,,,if Jesus could do it for a mess like I was He could certainly do it for a nice guy like you!

 What can I say ?I would just love for you to discover what I did at the foot of the cross................

                                                                                                                                       With love-in Christ,Kwik