Hell

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

I am sorry the Greek is αἰῶνας αἰώνων (Rev 14:11) now, as far as I can tell most lexicons recognise that the noun αἰών can refer to an age or eternity - however in this construction it would very problematic to read it as 'ages of ages'  though I can how how the genitive αἰώνων might lead one to that conclusion however we we consider the next phrase and the sense of continual restlessness that it speaks of καὶ οὐκ ἔχουσιν ἀνάπαυσιν ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς it becomes clear that not only is forever and ever a possible translation, but also the most appropriate one. 

 

That's not logical. The word can't mean eternity and a time period that is not eternal. That's like saying the same word can mean yes and no. "Aion" is used of things that are finite in duration thus it is not eternal. Aion was used to translate "Owlam" on the Septuagint, and Owlam doesn't mean eternal or forever and ever despite the English translations.

 

 

The Hebrew word Olam means essentially so far away that it can not be seen, either in the past or in the future. Often, Olam refers to what is called the 'next age'. The age to come might be the Messianic age (1000 year reign), and the age after that might be the new heaven and new earth. Olam can mean eternity or simply the yet to be seen next age. 

 

Olam va'ed is also a common expression and means the 'next age and again, another age beyond that'. Olam va'ed, in my view, should be understood as eternity.   In Hebrew, the understanding of certain words is based on context.

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

 

I am sorry the Greek is αἰῶνας αἰώνων (Rev 14:11) now, as far as I can tell most lexicons recognise that the noun αἰών can refer to an age or eternity - however in this construction it would very problematic to read it as 'ages of ages'  though I can how how the genitive αἰώνων might lead one to that conclusion however we we consider the next phrase and the sense of continual restlessness that it speaks of καὶ οὐκ ἔχουσιν ἀνάπαυσιν ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς it becomes clear that not only is forever and ever a possible translation, but also the most appropriate one. 

 

That's not logical. The word can't mean eternity and a time period that is not eternal. That's like saying the same word can mean yes and no. "Aion" is used of things that are finite in duration thus it is not eternal. Aion was used to translate "Owlam" on the Septuagint, and Owlam doesn't mean eternal or forever and ever despite the English translations.

 

 

The Hebrew word Olam means essentially so far away that it can not be seen, either in the past or in the future. Often, Olam refers to what is called the 'next age'. The age to come might be the Messianic age (1000 year reign), and the age after that might be the new heaven and new earth. Olam can mean eternity or simply the yet to be seen next age. 

 

Olam va'ed is also a common expression and means the 'next age and again, another age beyond that'. Olam va'ed, in my view, should be understood as eternity.   In Hebrew, the understanding of certain words is based on context.

 

I'll have to disagree with your definition of Owlam. I can agree that it is time unseen, but not necessarily that is unseen because it is so far away. I could also be unseen because it's end is unknown. Owlam is used of one's lifetime, which is unknown, but obviously doesn't last til future ages.

 

5 "But if the servant plainly says,`I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,'

6 "then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever. (Exo 21:5-6 NKJ)

 

Obviously, the man will not serve his master for eternity as they will at some point die. There are many places in the OT where Owlam is used to describe finite periods of time. A word can have several meanings but the same cannot have opposing meanings, if it did, no one would know what was being communicated. The problem is when we try to impose the modern western concept of eternity on these 1st century eastern concepts

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am sorry the Greek is αἰῶνας αἰώνων (Rev 14:11) now, as far as I can tell most lexicons recognise that the noun αἰών can refer to an age or eternity - however in this construction it would very problematic to read it as 'ages of ages'  though I can how how the genitive αἰώνων might lead one to that conclusion however we we consider the next phrase and the sense of continual restlessness that it speaks of καὶ οὐκ ἔχουσιν ἀνάπαυσιν ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς it becomes clear that not only is forever and ever a possible translation, but also the most appropriate one. 

 

That's not logical. The word can't mean eternity and a time period that is not eternal. That's like saying the same word can mean yes and no. "Aion" is used of things that are finite in duration thus it is not eternal. Aion was used to translate "Owlam" on the Septuagint, and Owlam doesn't mean eternal or forever and ever despite the English translations.

 

 

The Hebrew word Olam means essentially so far away that it can not be seen, either in the past or in the future. Often, Olam refers to what is called the 'next age'. The age to come might be the Messianic age (1000 year reign), and the age after that might be the new heaven and new earth. Olam can mean eternity or simply the yet to be seen next age. 

 

Olam va'ed is also a common expression and means the 'next age and again, another age beyond that'. Olam va'ed, in my view, should be understood as eternity.   In Hebrew, the understanding of certain words is based on context.

 

I'll have to disagree with your definition of Owlam. I can agree that it is time unseen, but not necessarily that is unseen because it is so far away. I could also be unseen because it's end is unknown. Owlam is used of one's lifetime, which is unknown, but obviously doesn't last til future ages.

 

5 "But if the servant plainly says,`I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,'

6 "then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever. (Exo 21:5-6 NKJ)

 

Obviously, the man will not serve his master for eternity as they will at some point die. There are many places in the OT where Owlam is used to describe finite periods of time. A word can have several meanings but the same cannot have opposing meanings, if it did, no one would know what was being communicated. The problem is when we try to impose the modern western concept of eternity on these 1st century eastern concepts

 

 

As I said ' In Hebrew, the understanding of certain words is based on context'.  Olam can mean an 'age' future or past. In the future, it commonly means a time unseen. It is clear that a persons life can also be an age, and as long as they are alive defines the age. Forever says that from now into the future, to an unknown time in the distant future, the servant must serve the master. There is no expiration, end date or ending to their servitude. Olam meaning age of time, can mean eternity depending on the context or parameters defining the age.

 

This is similar to marriage, which lasts forever, until death do they part. Olam means an age of time, so the age of time is based on context. It can certainly mean eternity.And when va'ed is included, Olam va'ed, it must be interpreted as eternity.

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am sorry the Greek is αἰῶνας αἰώνων (Rev 14:11) now, as far as I can tell most lexicons recognise that the noun αἰών can refer to an age or eternity - however in this construction it would very problematic to read it as 'ages of ages'  though I can how how the genitive αἰώνων might lead one to that conclusion however we we consider the next phrase and the sense of continual restlessness that it speaks of καὶ οὐκ ἔχουσιν ἀνάπαυσιν ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς it becomes clear that not only is forever and ever a possible translation, but also the most appropriate one. 

 

That's not logical. The word can't mean eternity and a time period that is not eternal. That's like saying the same word can mean yes and no. "Aion" is used of things that are finite in duration thus it is not eternal. Aion was used to translate "Owlam" on the Septuagint, and Owlam doesn't mean eternal or forever and ever despite the English translations.

 

 

The Hebrew word Olam means essentially so far away that it can not be seen, either in the past or in the future. Often, Olam refers to what is called the 'next age'. The age to come might be the Messianic age (1000 year reign), and the age after that might be the new heaven and new earth. Olam can mean eternity or simply the yet to be seen next age. 

 

Olam va'ed is also a common expression and means the 'next age and again, another age beyond that'. Olam va'ed, in my view, should be understood as eternity.   In Hebrew, the understanding of certain words is based on context.

 

I'll have to disagree with your definition of Owlam. I can agree that it is time unseen, but not necessarily that is unseen because it is so far away. I could also be unseen because it's end is unknown. Owlam is used of one's lifetime, which is unknown, but obviously doesn't last til future ages.

 

5 "But if the servant plainly says,`I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,'

6 "then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever. (Exo 21:5-6 NKJ)

 

Obviously, the man will not serve his master for eternity as they will at some point die. There are many places in the OT where Owlam is used to describe finite periods of time. A word can have several meanings but the same cannot have opposing meanings, if it did, no one would know what was being communicated. The problem is when we try to impose the modern western concept of eternity on these 1st century eastern concepts

 

 

As I said ' In Hebrew, the understanding of certain words is based on context'.  Olam can mean an 'age' future or past. In the future, it commonly means a time unseen. It is clear that a persons life can also be an age, and as long as they are alive defines the age. Forever says that from now into the future, to an unknown time in the distant future, the servant must serve the master. There is no expiration, end date or ending to their servitude. Olam meaning age of time, can mean eternity depending on the context or parameters defining the age.

 

This is similar to marriage, which lasts forever, until death do they part. Olam means an age of time, so the age of time is based on context. It can certainly mean eternity.And when va'ed is included, Olam va'ed, it must be interpreted as eternity.

But you said, Owlam means a time that cannot be seen, a person's lifespan can be seen. You didn't address what I said, you just repeated what you said. You said, "Forever says that from now into the future, to an unknown time in the distant future, the servant must serve the master." That's not the definition of forever. Forever doesn't mean til some time in the future, it means limitless time. The servant will not serve the master for limitless time. I also disagree that Olam va'ed "must" be interpreted as eternity.  The Bible uses phrases to express the idea of eternity, I'm not aware of any single word that expresses the idea of eternity. Here is a Biblical expression for eternity.

 

6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

(Isa 9:6-7 NKJ)

 

No end of His government is eternal.

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Hebrew word Olam means essentially so far away that it can not be seen, either in the past or in the future. Often, Olam refers to what is called the 'next age'. The age to come might be the Messianic age (1000 year reign), and the age after that might be the new heaven and new earth. Olam can mean eternity or simply the yet to be seen next age. 

 

Olam va'ed is also a common expression and means the 'next age and again, another age beyond that'. Olam va'ed, in my view, should be understood as eternity.   In Hebrew, the understanding of certain words is based on context.

 

I'll have to disagree with your definition of Owlam. I can agree that it is time unseen, but not necessarily that is unseen because it is so far away. I could also be unseen because it's end is unknown. Owlam is used of one's lifetime, which is unknown, but obviously doesn't last til future ages.

 

5 "But if the servant plainly says,`I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,'

6 "then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever. (Exo 21:5-6 NKJ)

 

Obviously, the man will not serve his master for eternity as they will at some point die. There are many places in the OT where Owlam is used to describe finite periods of time. A word can have several meanings but the same cannot have opposing meanings, if it did, no one would know what was being communicated. The problem is when we try to impose the modern western concept of eternity on these 1st century eastern concepts

 

 

As I said ' In Hebrew, the understanding of certain words is based on context'.  Olam can mean an 'age' future or past. In the future, it commonly means a time unseen. It is clear that a persons life can also be an age, and as long as they are alive defines the age. Forever says that from now into the future, to an unknown time in the distant future, the servant must serve the master. There is no expiration, end date or ending to their servitude. Olam meaning age of time, can mean eternity depending on the context or parameters defining the age.

 

This is similar to marriage, which lasts forever, until death do they part. Olam means an age of time, so the age of time is based on context. It can certainly mean eternity.And when va'ed is included, Olam va'ed, it must be interpreted as eternity.

But you said, Owlam means a time that cannot be seen, a person's lifespan can be seen. You didn't address what I said, you just repeated what you said. You said, "Forever says that from now into the future, to an unknown time in the distant future, the servant must serve the master." That's not the definition of forever. Forever doesn't mean til some time in the future, it means limitless time. The servant will not serve the master for limitless time. I also disagree that Olam va'ed "must" be interpreted as eternity.  The Bible uses phrases to express the idea of eternity, I'm not aware of any single word that expresses the idea of eternity. Here is a Biblical expression for eternity.

 

6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

(Isa 9:6-7 NKJ)

 

No end of His government is eternal.

 

 

From this point in time, my future is 'unseen'. I can't see it, or what will happen.  

 

Forever is not necessarily the same as eternity. I marriage is to last forever, no divorce. But forever is limited by death. Olam va'ed is often translated as 'forever and ever'. If 'forever' was eternity, then the added 'and ever' would be senseless. Forever is sometimes the equivalent of an 'age'. But, then by context, we have to know how the 'age' is defined. An age might be a persons lifetime, or the time until the Messianic reign, or the time until the heavens and earth cease to exist.   

 

As far as Isaiah 9:7, the word for end in Hebrew is qetz. Governments can end. Gods government has no end, lo qetz. But, I do not think that has anything to do with olam or olam va'ed. Just as in English, we can say 'no end', or forever, or until the end of the age, or eternal, it is simply a different set of words.     

[zhavoney]

Does that society that stopped fearing God love him????     Do you really follow Jesus because you fear what he wil do if you don't?

.

 

Psalms 111:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever.

 

Those who do not fear God, Christ and the Holy Spirit have never begun to know anything. The fear of the Lord is just the beginning of wisdom.

[7thseal]

By Hell, it seems you mean Hades. Hades is the grave and it is where everyone goes when they die. The Lake of Fire, Gehenna will not burn forever, it will be made holy to the Lord in the future. If you look at the passage Rev, 14:11, you'll find that those in torment are alive, they are not dead and in the Lake of Fire. The word translated worship is in the present tense, they are being tormented while they are worshiping the Beast. Also, if you look at the next verse you'll find that the saints are there also.

 

11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev 14:11-12 NKJ)

 

The Greek word translated "here" means in the same place. This obviously isn't the Lake of Fire if the saints are there.

 

 

 

Sorry I haven't been able join lately but now able.. You've tied saints into the same place as those worshipping the beast and made no support of this other than a verse which clearly shows saints keeping the commandments of God.... not worshipping the beast.

 

Explain please and then we'll move forward. As you never mentioned the here following the first one?

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Hebrew word Olam means essentially so far away that it can not be seen, either in the past or in the future. Often, Olam refers to what is called the 'next age'. The age to come might be the Messianic age (1000 year reign), and the age after that might be the new heaven and new earth. Olam can mean eternity or simply the yet to be seen next age. 

 

Olam va'ed is also a common expression and means the 'next age and again, another age beyond that'. Olam va'ed, in my view, should be understood as eternity.   In Hebrew, the understanding of certain words is based on context.

 

I'll have to disagree with your definition of Owlam. I can agree that it is time unseen, but not necessarily that is unseen because it is so far away. I could also be unseen because it's end is unknown. Owlam is used of one's lifetime, which is unknown, but obviously doesn't last til future ages.

 

5 "But if the servant plainly says,`I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,'

6 "then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever. (Exo 21:5-6 NKJ)

 

Obviously, the man will not serve his master for eternity as they will at some point die. There are many places in the OT where Owlam is used to describe finite periods of time. A word can have several meanings but the same cannot have opposing meanings, if it did, no one would know what was being communicated. The problem is when we try to impose the modern western concept of eternity on these 1st century eastern concepts

 

 

As I said ' In Hebrew, the understanding of certain words is based on context'.  Olam can mean an 'age' future or past. In the future, it commonly means a time unseen. It is clear that a persons life can also be an age, and as long as they are alive defines the age. Forever says that from now into the future, to an unknown time in the distant future, the servant must serve the master. There is no expiration, end date or ending to their servitude. Olam meaning age of time, can mean eternity depending on the context or parameters defining the age.

 

This is similar to marriage, which lasts forever, until death do they part. Olam means an age of time, so the age of time is based on context. It can certainly mean eternity.And when va'ed is included, Olam va'ed, it must be interpreted as eternity.

But you said, Owlam means a time that cannot be seen, a person's lifespan can be seen. You didn't address what I said, you just repeated what you said. You said, "Forever says that from now into the future, to an unknown time in the distant future, the servant must serve the master." That's not the definition of forever. Forever doesn't mean til some time in the future, it means limitless time. The servant will not serve the master for limitless time. I also disagree that Olam va'ed "must" be interpreted as eternity.  The Bible uses phrases to express the idea of eternity, I'm not aware of any single word that expresses the idea of eternity. Here is a Biblical expression for eternity.

 

6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

(Isa 9:6-7 NKJ)

 

No end of His government is eternal.

 

 

From this point in time, my future is 'unseen'. I can't see it, or what will happen.  

 

Forever is not necessarily the same as eternity. I marriage is to last forever, no divorce. But forever is limited by death. Olam va'ed is often translated as 'forever and ever'. If 'forever' was eternity, then the added 'and ever' would be senseless. Forever is sometimes the equivalent of an 'age'. But, then by context, we have to know how the 'age' is defined. An age might be a persons lifetime, or the time until the Messianic reign, or the time until the heavens and earth cease to exist.   

 

As far as Isaiah 9:7, the word for end in Hebrew is qetz. Governments can end. Gods government has no end, lo qetz. But, I do not think that has anything to do with olam or olam va'ed. Just as in English, we can say 'no end', or forever, or until the end of the age, or eternal, it is simply a different set of words.     

 

You're trying to redefine "forever". Look up the definitions of "forever" and "eternal," I agree "forever and ever" makes no sense, but that's a translational erro.

[Butch5]

 

By Hell, it seems you mean Hades. Hades is the grave and it is where everyone goes when they die. The Lake of Fire, Gehenna will not burn forever, it will be made holy to the Lord in the future. If you look at the passage Rev, 14:11, you'll find that those in torment are alive, they are not dead and in the Lake of Fire. The word translated worship is in the present tense, they are being tormented while they are worshiping the Beast. Also, if you look at the next verse you'll find that the saints are there also.

 

11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev 14:11-12 NKJ)

 

The Greek word translated "here" means in the same place. This obviously isn't the Lake of Fire if the saints are there.

 

 

 

Sorry I haven't been able join lately but now able.. You've tied saints into the same place as those worshipping the beast and made no support of this other than a verse which clearly shows saints keeping the commandments of God.... not worshipping the beast.

 

Explain please and then we'll move forward. As you never mentioned the here following the first one?

 

Just look at the passage. There's nothing in it that says these people are dead or in hell. As a matter of fact it's speaking of those who worship the beast. In order for them to worship the beast they must be alive.

[7thseal]

Just look at the passage. There's nothing in it that says these people are dead or in hell. As a matter of fact it's speaking of those who worship the beast. In order for them to worship the beast they must be alive.

 

 

 

So when do they die according to your view?