Are Jesus and Jehova (YHWH) the same being??????

[Persuaded]

...which Paul explains nicely for us in Phi 2, quoted above.

Christ emptied Himself and took on flesh. As a man, He allowed Himself to be subject to several limitations. He wasn't omnipresent in His human body. He gained knowledge as he grew from childhood. He submitted Himself to obedience to the Father through the power of the Spirit, rather than using His own power, so that He could in all ways be tempted "like us".

So all the "Father statements" Jesus makes as a man are in this context.

[Marilyn C]

Dear inchrist,

 

Please could you tell me how God as just one person / entity could express `love,` in eternity before He made other beings, - angels, man.

[Persuaded]

@ Persuaded

I'm gonna deal with Thomas expression and prove Thomas had Two persons in view and not one person in view.

Thomas' words to Yashua in Greek literally read, "the Lord of me and the God of me." In Greek this is how one would refer to two persons not one as suggested by your interpretation. 

If one wanted to refer to one person he would say, "the Lord and God of me."

-snip-

Keeping in mind that John 20:28 is embedded and framed in Jesus' statements about seeing and believing, carefully regard what Jesus taught us with respect to John 20:28.

Verse Jesus The Father 

John 12:44 He who BELIEVES in ME [bELIEVES] in HIM who sent me. 

John 12:45 He who SEES ME SEES HIM who sent me 

John 14:9 He who has SEEN ME has SEEN THE FATHER. 

John 20:28 MY LORD and MY GOD. 

Conclusion

When all the evidence is weight, there is simply no doubt that Thomas was affirming Jesus' earlier teaching to him and the other disciples, that to see and believe in Jesus was to see and believe in the Father.

Again, the whole verse/quote from Thomas is:

John 20:28 (NKJV) 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

He said to Him, both those things. This is Thomas speaking, not Jesus teaching within a framed context.

No (credible) Bible translator has re-written the My Lord and my God expression the way you have. Even placing it alongside other unrelated passages doesn't change the clear meaning of what is said.

It isn't "diving into the text" if all you do is re-write the parts that don't agree with your view. "If you torture the data long enough, it'll confess to whatever you want". Try just reading what is written, unless your position is that Bible is all a mistranslated conspiracy that consistently distorts the truth.

[Persuaded]

...which Paul explains nicely for us in Phi 2, quoted above.

Christ emptied Himself and took on flesh. As a man, He allowed Himself to be subject to several limitations. He wasn't omnipresent in His human body. He gained knowledge as he grew from childhood. He submitted Himself to obedience to the Father through the power of the Spirit, rather than using His own power, so that He could in all ways be tempted "like us".

So all the "Father statements" Jesus makes as a man are in this context.

 

interesting..... how would you explain the context when Jesus was resurrected and after He was resurrected  made the following statement

 

"'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

This is resurrection morning, to Mary:

John 20:17 (NKJV) 17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' "

I'd suggest the first part of the quote is key here: "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father..."

We know He was touched and handled after the resurrection, so what's going on here? Why shouldn't Mary cling to Him just then?

The answer that seems most reasonable comes out of Hebrews 9:

Hebrews 9:13 (NKJV) 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,

Hebrews 9:14 (NKJV) 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit ***offered Himself without spot to God***, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

In His dual role as both our high priest, and the sacrifice itself, He needed to present Himself to the Father, spotless, as an acceptable sacrifice, in accordance with Levitcal law.

It is not disputed that Jesus, on earth, gave deference to the Father. That was the role He took on as He emptied (kenao, Phi 2) Himself.

[Qnts2]

 

Again, the whole verse/quote from Thomas is:

John 20:28 (NKJV) 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

He said to Him, both those things. This is Thomas speaking, not Jesus teaching within a framed context.

No (credible) Bible translator has re-written the My Lord and my God expression the way you have. Even placing it alongside other unrelated passages doesn't change the clear meaning of what is said.

 

 

 

Persuaded your not getting it let me show you...

 

This is what Yeshua taught

 

John 12:44 He who BELIEVES in ME [bELIEVES] in HIM who sent me.  (Two persons in view)

John 12:45 He who SEES ME SEES HIM who sent me  (Two persons in view)

John 14:9 He who has SEEN ME has SEEN THE FATHER. ( Two persons in view)

 

Then Thomas speaks and says the following  ( what Thomas Learnt)

John 20:28 My Lord and my God!"

 

Now according to you Thomas means that a single person is in view all of a sudden? So Thomas clearly didnt understand what Yeshua was teaching then?

 

Further you break Greek Grammatic rules 

 

So lets recap

 

John 12:44 He who BELIEVES in ME [bELIEVES] in HIM who sent me.  (Two persons in view)

John 12:45 He who SEES ME SEES HIM who sent me  (Two persons in view)

John 14:9 He who has SEEN ME has SEEN THE FATHER. ( Two persons in view)

John 20:28 My Lord and my God!" ( Now all of a sudden it's meant be singular person in view?, it's inconsistent with what Yeshua taught)

 

So lets be consistent with what Yeshua taught

 

    John 12:44 He who BELIEVES in ME [bELIEVES] in HIM who sent me.  (Two persons in view)

+

John 12:45 He who SEES ME SEES HIM who sent me  (Two persons in view)

+

John 14:9 He who has SEEN ME has SEEN THE FATHER. ( Two persons in view)

 =

John 20:28 My Lord and my God!" ( Two person in view)

 

Consistent with Yeshua's teaching and consistent with Greek Grammar

 

It isn't "diving into the text" if all you do is re-write the parts that don't agree with your view. "If you torture the data long enough, it'll confess to whatever you want". Try just reading what is written, unless your position is that Bible is all a mistranslated conspiracy that consistently distorts the truth. 

 

 

I'm afraid the NT was written in greek, not english it would help to get an understanding of the grammar of the day

 

 

I see many different issues with your interpretation, but I will only add a quick comment about Greek grammar. I claim no knowledge of Greek, but at one point, a person familiar with Koine Greek told me about a grammatical rule called the Granville Sharp rule.

That rule essentially says that when Greek 'kai'/English 'and'  is used to connect two nouns, one article is used for both nouns.

 

In John 20:28 '

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.   My Lord and my God, according to the Granville Sharp rule of grammar must apply to the 'Him' Thomas is answering. The person Thomas is answering and speaking to and about is Jesus. So, according to Greek grammar rules, Thomas is calling Jesus both Lord and God.

[Persuaded]

Numbers 19:1-10 (NKJV) 1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 2 “This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD has commanded, saying: ‘Speak to the children of Israel, that they bring you a red heifer without blemish, in which there is no defect and on which a yoke has never come. 3 ‘You shall give it to Eleazar the priest, that he may take it outside the camp, and it shall be slaughtered before him; 4 ‘and Eleazar the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, and sprinkle some of its blood seven times directly in front of the tabernacle of meeting. 5 ‘Then the heifer shall be burned in his sight: its hide, its flesh, its blood, and its offal shall be burned. 6 ‘And the priest shall take cedar wood and hyssop and scarlet, and cast them into the midst of the fire burning the heifer. 7 ‘Then the priest shall wash his clothes, he shall bathe in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp; the priest shall be unclean until evening. 8 ‘And the one who burns it shall wash his clothes in water, bathe in water, and shall be unclean until evening. 9 ‘Then a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin. 10 ‘And the one who gathers the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until evening. It shall be a statute forever to the children of Israel and to the stranger who dwells among them.

The sacrifice is completed after the animal is slain. The high priest remains unclean for a time, afterward. The OT tabernacle was a model of the heavenly, so when The, our high priest made His sacrifice, He had to return from outside the camp where Be was slain and perform the priestly duties over the real, heavenly tabernacle.

Jesus calls the Father "my God".

The Father (or the LORD) calls the Son "LORD" as well.

Repeating one, does not negate the other.

[Persuaded]

 

 

Is it "ME" or is it "HIM"

 

"They will look at the one they stabbed to death."- The Bible in Living English, Byington

   -an oddball translation, now owned by the Watchtower/JW's.

 

"They will look at him they have pierced."- Living Bible, Taylor

  -a paraphrase, based on the ASV, hardly it's own "translation"

 

"They will look at the one whom they stabbed to death."- Todays English Version

  -or "Good News Bible", a translation focused on easy reading, and thought for thought rather than word for word, pretty far down the "paraphrase" trail.

 

"They will look at the one whom they have pierced".- The Jerusalem Bible

  -1966 version of the Roman Catholic Bible, again pretty far down the "paraphrase" trail.  Supports the non Moses authorship of the Pentateuch, so quite liberal.

 

"They shall look on whom they have thrust through."- New American Bible.

  -another Catholic Bible. Supports the non Moses authorship of the Pentateuch, so quite liberal.

 

"They shall look on him whom they stabbed."- Moffatt

  - Supports the non Moses authorship of the Pentateuch, so quite liberal. Changes dates of authorship of various books to suit his views. Re-orders books, chapters, to suit his views.

 

"They shall look at him whom they have stabbed."- American Translation, Goodspeed

  -a liberal translation. Just two translators.

 

"They shall look upon Him who they have pierced."- Modern language Bible

  -focused on easy reading, with a handful of odd extras added to the text.

 

"When they look on whom they have pierced."- Revised Standard/New Revised Standard Version

  -why the change from "me" in the ASV, which this "revises"?

 

"Their eyes will be turned to the one who was wounded."- Bible in Basic English

  -almost beyond paraphrase in its simplification of the original text. "The Bible, using a vocabulary of just 1000 words..."

 

"When they see the one they pierced with a spear."- Contemporary English Bible

  -a simplification project, similar to above.

 

"They shall look upon HIM¹ Whom they pierced."- The Complete Bible in Modern English, F. Fenton.

  -another very liberal translator, working alone. Believed the old ages of the anti-deluvians was because they were tribal names, not actual people, etc.

 

 

With the exception of the RSV, I think all you've done is find a bunch of oddballs to agree with your position. Not good company upon which to build a case for changing the understanding of the scripture.

 

And for fun, I just love that the hebrew has the untranslated aleph-tav (אֵ֣ת) accusative right after "look upon me". These first and last letters, corresponding to the alpha and omega of the greek, make a person want to read this as "and they shall look upon me, the alpha and omega, whom they have pierced..."

 

That's what it says, but not quite what it means. But a fun "coincidence" none the less!

 

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi inchrist,
 
I`m fine thank you & thank you for your answer to my question, but I don`t think you understood what I was asking. My question was -

`Please could you tell me how God as just one person / entity could express `love,` in eternity before He made other beings, - angels, man.`

 

What I mean is -  How can `God` be `love,` (God is love - 1 John 4: 8) if He is just `one being.` Love means to give of oneself. That would therefore make God selfish if He only had Himself to love. A lone, lonely God does not have the virtues to pass on - faithfulness (to whom? Himself?) love (Himself) integrity, etc etc

 

However because there is the Trinity, love is given of each to the other. And all the other virtues are present also & operational among them.

 

For there to be God, it must mean a Godhead of beings that are loving, faithful, accountable etc etc. These do not come out of thin air but are integral in the concept of `God.`  

[Persuaded]

Places where the Son is called YHWH or elohiym (we just went through this here with a JW-ish fellow a month ago, but I can't find the thread, so must rebuild from scratch...).

Hebrews 1 quotes several OT passages and says they apply to the Son:

Hebrews 1:8 (NKJV) 8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

Hebrews 1:9 (NKJV) 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."

Which is quoting Psalm 45:

Psalms 45:6 (NKJV) 6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

Psalms 45:7 (NKJV) 7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

Another from Hebrews:

Hebrews 1:10 (NKJV) 10 And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Hebrews 1:11 (NKJV) 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;

Hebrews 1:12 (NKJV) 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail."

Which is quoting Psalm 102:

Psalms 102:25 (NKJV) 25 Of old You [the LORD, from earlier in the Psalm, and confirmed by Hebrews ] laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Psalms 102:26 (NKJV) 26 They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed.

And here's Philippians 2 again:

Philippians 2:9 (NKJV) 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,

Philippians 2:10 (NKJV) 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,

Philippians 2:11 (NKJV) 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

...saying every knee shall bow to JESUS.

Which is referring to Isaiah 45:

Isaiah 45:21 (NKJV) 21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.

Isaiah 45:22 (NKJV) 22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:23 (NKJV) 23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.

Isaiah 45:24 (NKJV) 24 He shall say, 'Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him.

Isaiah 45:25 (NKJV) 25 In the LORD all the descendants of Israel Shall be justified, and shall glory.' "

And the knee shall bow phrase is repeated in Romans:

Romans 14:11 (NKJV) 11 For it is written: "As I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God."

To whom does the knee bow in these two passages? -the LORD!

[Marilyn C]

Hi inchrist,

 

I hear what you say about one God, but to me there are the 3 persons of the Godhead. One would be a dictator, two would be dual, opposing, 4 or more would not be the basis of harmony. For example in music to tune a note on a piano you need to tune the three strings that vibrate together to make one note on the keyboard. Harmony in the Godhead is the basis of all functioning.

 

I think why you have trouble with the concept of the trinity is that you see Father God as the sole leader. That is a functioning role, God the Father initiating, then God the Son administers, while the Holy Spirit brings the direct agency of power.

 

They counsel together, `...who works all things after the counsel of His will.` (Eph. 1: 11)

`...the Lord...`Whom shall I send, & who will go for us?`(Isa. 6: 8)

 

At the heart of the Godhead there is `His Counsel` between the Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit. Each person shares in the Divine substance, yet each is distinct from the others. Each shows forth the actions proper to Him.