I get it, somethings are not easy to swallow

[Guest]

Nice thread John....

 

praise be to difficult things that bring us into truth.

 

 

Amen~!

 

One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in his temple. Psalm 27:4

[JohnD]

 

Okay.

 

So how would you exegete:

 

Romans 9:6 (KJV)

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

?

In context, Paul's point is that "Israel" in spiritual terms refers to a believing Jewish remnant within the ethnic nation of Israel.  The true "Israel" is that believing remnant of ethnic Jews.

 

 

Okay. Then how do you understand that reasoning in light of...

 

Ephesians 2:11-22 (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

Or...

 

Galatians 3:24-28 (KJV)

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

Or...

 

Galatians 6:13-16 (KJV)

13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

[JohnD]

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

includes Gentiles who become members of the spirit house of Israel upon conversion.

[Guest shiloh357]

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

includes Gentiles who become members of the spirit house of Israel upon conversion.

Wrong.  There is no such thing as a "spirit house of Israel" anywhere in the Bible.  That is something YOU have made up and are imposing on the text.  The house of Judah and the house of Israel are referring the enthnic descendents of Jacob, ONLY.   Gentiles are not included in that passage.  Gentiles are not even in view in the overall context.  That is talking about the restoration of the nation of Israel.   Sorry, but you are incorrect.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Okay.

 

So how would you exegete:

 

Romans 9:6 (KJV)

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

?

In context, Paul's point is that "Israel" in spiritual terms refers to a believing Jewish remnant within the ethnic nation of Israel.  The true "Israel" is that believing remnant of ethnic Jews.

 

 

Okay. Then how do you understand that reasoning in light of...

 

Ephesians 2:11-22 (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

Or...

 

Galatians 3:24-28 (KJV)

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

Or...

 

Galatians 6:13-16 (KJV)

13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

You have three different passages and three different contexts and you can't simply throw them all into the same pile as if they are all speaking to the same thing. 

 

First of all Ephesians 2 has nothing to do with who is or is not Israel. That is not in view at all.   The middle wall of partition that kept Gentiles away has been broken down. This is about Jews and Gentiles standing together as a redeemed community.   Nothing in that has anything to do with Gentiles being Israel.

 

Gal. 3:28 that you have underlined is referring to the fact that gender, social status and ethnic pedigree puts no one at an advantage or disadvantage where access to the grace of God is concerned.

 

Galatians six and the "Israel of God" refer to the same believing remnant as mentioned in Romans 9.  The Israel of God is the true Israel, made up of Jewish believers.  It doesn't include Gentiles.

[JohnD]

It sounds as if you are grasping after straws, Shiloh.

 

The subjects were precisely about Jews and Gentiles and the one new man the Israel of God / Kingdom of God.

 

Tell me, van you accept "Israel" as a name for Yeshua / Jesus?

 

Yish

Sarar

Elohiym

 

The ultimate Prince of God is... ?

[Guest shiloh357]

It sounds as if you are grasping after straws, Shiloh.

 

The subjects were precisely about Jews and Gentiles and the one new man the Israel of God / Kingdom of God.

 

Tell me, van you accept "Israel" as a name for Yeshua / Jesus?

 

Yish

Sarar

Elohiym

 

The ultimate Prince of God is... ?

Wrong, it has nothing to do with one new man called "the Israel of God."  That is something YOU have made up through sloppy exegesis.  You mix contexts and string passages together like lights on a Christmas tree.  Anyone can do that and make the Bible say anything they want it to say.   Sorry, but you the one grasping at the straw.

 

Israel is Israel.  The Church is the Church.  The Bible never spiritualizes "Israel" to refer to anyone other than the ethnic descendents of Jacob. Nor, is "israel" ever spiritualized to refer to Jesus.  If Jesus is Israel, the Bible would say so.  Your Hebrew is wrong as well.  No surprise there.  You shouldn't try to use Hebrew with someone who can read Hebrew.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Shiloh,,,,,,

    Ah,the simplicity of Gods Word,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Praise & Glory to God in the Highest,thanks Shiloh..............may You continue to hine the Light of our Lord

                                                                                                                                                                      With love-Your Sister in Christ,Kwik

[JohnD]

 

It sounds as if you are grasping after straws, Shiloh.

 

The subjects were precisely about Jews and Gentiles and the one new man the Israel of God / Kingdom of God.

 

Tell me, van you accept "Israel" as a name for Yeshua / Jesus?

 

Yish

Sarar

Elohiym

 

The ultimate Prince of God is... ?

Wrong, it has nothing to do with one new man called "the Israel of God."  That is something YOU have made up through sloppy exegesis.  You mix contexts and string passages together like lights on a Christmas tree.  Anyone can do that and make the Bible say anything they want it to say.   Sorry, but you the one grasping at the straw.

 

Israel is Israel.  The Church is the Church.  The Bible never spiritualizes "Israel" to refer to anyone other than the ethnic descendents of Jacob. Nor, is "israel" ever spiritualized to refer to Jesus.  If Jesus is Israel, the Bible would say so.  Your Hebrew is wrong as well.  No surprise there.  You shouldn't try to use Hebrew with someone who can read Hebrew.

 

 

 

Romans 9:1-6 (NASB95)

1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,

2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,

5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 

So... is this not saying precisely what you (Shiloh) are saying the Bible does not say?

 

Why did the Apostle not say they are not all believers or obedient who are descended from Israel?

 

Why the use of the term Israel here and in Galatians 6:16?

 

And does Paul not define this use of Israel in:

 

Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

 

Ephesians 2:11-22 (NASB95)

11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—

12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near;

18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,

20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,

22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

[Guest shiloh357]

Romans 9:1-6 (NASB95)

1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,

2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,

5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 

So... is this not saying precisely what you (Shiloh) are saying the Bible does not say?

 

No.   He is saying that not ethnic Israelites are the true Israel. Not all of Jacobs descendents are members of the true nation of Israel, which is comprised of Jewish believers.

 

Why did the Apostle not say they are not all believers or obedient who are descended from Israel?

 

That is what he is saying. Paul is defining the true Israel as the obedient, believing remnant of Jews who obeyed the Gospel and have come to Christ.  That is the true Israel.

 

Why the use of the term Israel here and in Galatians 6:16?

 

Israel in Gal. 6:16 is referring to the believing remnant of Jews, not to Gentile believers. 

 

And does Paul not define this use of Israel in:

 

Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

No, that is not how he defines Israel.   Paul in Romans chapter two is talking about Jews who boast in the law and their ethnic pedigree as if being Jewish was enough to justify them before God.

 

Paul's point is about what it means for a Jew to be a true Jew.  Israel is not in view until Rom. 9.    The first three chapters of Romans discusses the relationship of the unbelieving Gentiles, and the unbelieving Jews to God and how both the Jew and Gentile are equally sinful and that Gentiles are not at a a disadvantage and Jews are not at an advantage where God's grace is concerned.  Both are sinners and they are universally condemned apart from Christ.

 

Paul's point in Rom. 2:28-29 is that a true Jew is a Jew who has his heart circumcised and lives his life as a praise to God.  Paul is not saying that Gentiles are Jews.

 

Ephesians 2:11-22 (NASB95)

11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—

12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near;

18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,

20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,

22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

 

the same goes for this passage, as well.    You are taking these passages and applying them to an issue (the identity of Israel) which they were not intended to address.  You are ripping them from their natural context and imposing your false doctrines to them.    In Eph. 2, Paul is simply telling the Gentiles that they have full access to the same blessings as the Jews.  He is not saying that they are part of Israel, but that they partake in the covenental blessings of God that God has promised to Israel and that they receive them by virtue of their faith in Jesus. 

 

Nothing in any of the passages you cite have anything to do with Gentiles becoming part of Israel.  The Bible knows nothing of what you are saying.  You imposing your own presuppositions on to the text and it is really nothing but poor exegesis.