Who Populates the Millennial Kingdom?

[Salty]

Ok, so now, how will the Millennium of Christ's future thousand years reign be populated, which was the main topic here?

 

Rev.5

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

That event of course does not occur until Christ's second coming and thereafter, per Rev.20, but also... per Ezekiel 44 which actually gives more detail on His reign on earth with His elect for the future Millennial time.

 

All events beginning with Ezekiel 40 forward are for Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20, and thereafter.

 

Beginning in Ezekiel 47 through 48, we are given the specific layouts of the land possessions of each of the 12 tribes of Israel in the Middle East. Within the first part of Ezekiel 40, Ezekiel is shown the lands of Israel in the Middle East, on earth, by vision, along with the Millennial events, layout of The Father's House (yes, the same "house" our Lord Jesus referred to in John 14, which is the sanctuary in those Ezekiel chapters), and specifically what Christ's priests will be doing and how they will serve Him, and the people.

 

Ezekiel 44

⁶ And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, "Thus saith the Lord God; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,

⁷ In that ye have brought into My sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary, to pollute it, even My house, when ye offer My bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken My covenant because of all your abominations.

⁸ And ye have not kept the charge of Mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of My charge in My sanctuary for yourselves.

 

After the split of old Israel into two separate kingdoms, that "house of Israel" title was only... applied to the ten northern tribes of Israel with the tribe of Ephraim as head. That distinction is kept throughout the Book of Ezekiel, as that is specifically who Ezekiel was sent as a prophet to (Ezek.3).

 

In the above, God is rebuking His chosen of the "house of Israel", i.e., those of the ten tribes, because of allowing false workers into His House. As per the very last verse of Zech.14 after Christ's second coming, we are shown in that future time, the Canaanite will no more be in the House of The Lord. This has been an on-going problem among the Israelites since God led them out of Egypt, because they allowed the pagan idolaters to creep into their stay, and even foreigners of the Canaanites became the scribes in Jerusalem (1 Chron.2:55, Gen.15:18-19). God allowed this testing because of what He said to them in Judges 2 & 3.

 

The following group represent the children of Israel that fell away from God and His chosen duties for them in The Gospel, but instead led the house of Israel into pagan worship. This applies equally to the unbelievers of Israel, and to Christian leaders Christ called that fell away to mislead His Body into falseness...

 

Ezek.44

¹⁰ And the Levites that are gone away far from Me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from Me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.

¹¹ Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.

¹² Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up Mine hand against them, saith the Lord God, and they shall bear their iniquity.

¹³ And they shall not come near unto Me, to do the office of a priest unto Me, nor to come near to any of My holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.

¹⁴ But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.

 

Firstly, most will quickly notice that subject there about animal sacrifices. That is a test, to see who will actually read and study this and understand how it applies to Christ's future Milennial reign with His elect priests. Christ became The Perfect Sacrifice for sin for one and all time, and Apostle Paul used the idea of sacrifice in His Epistles to now mean our love to The Father and The Son. Thus I believe this animal sacrifice is put here because of this Scripture being given in Old Testament times, and does not mean literal animal sacrifices. I see it as a test... to see if we will disregard these Ezekiel Scriptures as thinking they've already been fulfilled.

 

Notice those Levites mentioned above that fell away, and led Israel astray. Again, that applies equally to those of the seed of Israel, and to Christian leaders that Christ callled who fall away. In other words, since Christ's Church means believers of both the seed of Israel and believing Gentiles, likewise... with this group that fell away. These will not... be allowed to approach Christ Jesus in that Millennial time. Instead, they will bear their iniquity by keeping charge of God's House, and it's in the sense of a penalty and correction.

 

Ezekiel 44

¹⁵ But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me, and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord God:

¹⁶ They shall enter into My sanctuary, and they shall come near to My table, to minister unto Me, and they shall keep My charge.

¹⁷ And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.

¹⁸ They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.

¹⁹ And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments.

²⁰ Neither shall they shave their heads, nor suffer their locks to grow long; they shall only poll their heads.

 

These are Christ's priests, the "sons of Zadok". That name Zadok means 'The Just' or 'The Righteous'. These represent Christ's elect in that future time, those He promised would reign with Him, on the earth.

 

These Zadok will... be allowed to approach near Christ Jesus in that future time, and will serve Him at His House. That is the timing our Lord Jesus was speaking of in Revelation 3 to those of the Church of Philadelphia, that He would make those of the "synagogue of Satan" to come bow at their feet, to know that He has loved these Zadok, The Just.

 

Therefore, the Ezekiel evidence for Christ's future Millennial Kingdom shows His elect reiging ... on earth, in The Father's House established in the Middle East at the area of Jerusalem, and... that the children of Israel will... be there also, either in a condition like those Levite ministers who will bear their iniquity in charge of ministers of the House, or among Christ's elect Zadok that will serve and approach Him.

 

Further in Ezekiel 47 in association with that House, is God's River running from out under the House to feed other waters upon the earth, healing them, with the tree of life on either side of that river. Per Rev.21-22, there will be no more temple there after that thousand years Millennial period. Also per Rev.20 and Rev.22:14-15, the nations that were deceived will dwell outside the gates of the holy city along with the wicked. And that is how Christ's future Millennial reign will be populated, with Christ's Church there on earth, reiging with Him.

[S.T. Ranger]

False argument: I never said the raising of Lazarus was the resurrection, but a resurrection. One among a number of resurrections which take place before Christ's Resurrection. But Christ is the First to be raised in a glorified body. Then the Rapture. Then the Two Witnesses. Then the Tribulation Martyrs.

Salty: still not a valid point to support your rapture theory, even if you want to call Jesus' raising of Lazarus a resurrection. And your last statement has their event timing out of order. The true order is the tribulation time with God's two witnesses along with the Church here on earth with some of them being martyred, and then Jesus' only coming (parousia) with the harpazo event.

That you are raising false arguments is not a valid point? lol

It is. So I reiterate the point: I never said the raising of Lazarus was the resurrection, but a resurrection.

Here you are denying that Lazarus was resurrected.

You are also placing the Rapture in the Middle of the Week with the Two Witnesses.

And while I am at it...quit cherry-picking the responses. If you would address all of it you would be forced to admit your doctrine has serious error.

That is not in question. How many times do I have to say your proof-texts apply to Christ's Return?

What your proof-texts are lacking is tying the Rapture to His physical Return.

Salty: you are only denying those Scriptures which show the coming of our Lord Jesus along with the the gathering of His saints,

I deny that you can place a resurrection at the time of Christ's Return. To keep saying "I already proved this and that with that 1 Thessalonians verse," or "that 1 Corinthians verse" is not exactly what I call showing anything.

Those that are gathered at the Lord's Return are those that are still physically alive. That is the one fact that you cannot change, and you cannot show a resurrection at His Return other than the Tribulation Martyrs.

like I showed with the Matt.24, Mark 13 especially,

Splendid.

Maybe we should look at that Revelation thingy, or perhaps examine that Luke thingamajigger, lol.

There is no resurrection in either of these two passages, and I challenge you to show there is. That is why you have to be so vague in what Scripture you present as support for your doctrine.

So let's look at your especially:

Mark 13:26-27

King James Version (KJV)

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Now let's look at Paul's teaching of the Rapture:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The resurrection of the Church, both living and alive...is clear. Yet in Mark, as in all teachings about His physical Return, it is the Angels that gather the Elect.

So where is your Biblical Basis for a resurrection at the Lord's Return? That is what you have been, and always will be...lacking.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

Rev.16:15, and 1 Thess.5 also as evidence when studied in comparison.

You take passages which are not related and merge them into a fanciful doctrine.

Here is you vague reference:

Revelation 16:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

...and here it is within it's context:

Revelation 16:12-16

King James Version (KJV)

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

This refers specifically to those...within the Tribulation.

But as previously stated, this...

1 Thessalonians 5

King James Version (KJV)

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

...is Paul telling them, directly answering their fears about the tribulation they are going through at that time...that they are not going through the Tribulation itself, because...

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Understand? We are not appointed to the wrath that they think they are going through, and the wrath they think they are going through is the Day of the Lord.

Now, let's see what he says next:

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

In other words...the same thing that he just told them:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now look at it again:

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Both times he makes it clear that it will not matter if we are dead or alive, we will be with the Lord.

In all of the passages dealing with the Lord's Return, He comes to Earth...and we are with Him. That is just a fact. You will go on to reiterate that with a proof-text of your own and you do not even understand it denies your position.

As I said in the previous post, which you conveniently incorporate into your own, lol, is that Paul distinguishes between temporal tribulation which they are already going through...and the wrath to come.

Now think about this Salty, do you not see that it is impossible for Paul to be telling them not to fear the wrath that is to come...

...if they are going to experience that wrath? The events that unfold are not caused by Satan...but God. Satan did not impose Seventy Weeks of Judgment...God did.

And we are not appointed unto that wrath. And when you get to the commentaries that try to argue the difference between orge and thumos wrath, I will suggest in advance that you not try to argue that, lol, because that too is a weak argument that can be dismantled through the context where these are found.

Your denial of their context is only so you can keep your pre-trib theory.

It's neither mine nor a theory, simply the only tenable conclusion which reconciles Scripture on all points, including resurrection in eschatological passages. I have dealt with the context a number of times yet because you cherry-pick the posts you are leaving out a great deal of the issues which have to be discussed.

If you keep doing this I will stop responding to your posts. Either address it all, or you disqualify yourself as a worthy antagonist.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The Day of the Lord will not overtake us as a thief. That is clear. And Paul goes on to say why...

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Again, Paul makes it clear that for the Church...being alive or dead makes no difference in regards to the Day of the Lord. What he is saying is that the Day of the Lord is sudden, unexpected wrath that comes upon the children of darkness.

Salty: one must take what Paul said there in full context, which you left part of that out.

No, Salty, this portion of the passage was relevant to the point made, which apparently got through because you incorporate it into your comments after this.

When Christ Returns, He will deal with those that are still physically alive. The Rapture is found nowhere in any of those passages. Even the First Resurrection of Revelation 20 does not clearly define a Rapture, it simply speaks of the Tribulation Martyrs being raised and reigning with Christ.

Your doctrine lacks Scripture.

Here's what you left out:

1 Thessalonians 5:4-8King James Version (KJV)

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

So when do they need to put on their Armor? In the Tribulation? Or in the day he wrote to them? The latter of course, which places this, not in the wrath we are not appointed to, but in the here and now.

Now are we to be sober, now are we to put on the Armor of God.

This was not "left out," lol, it was simply irrelevant to the point being made. Please refrain from the absurdity.

Salty: Paul was admonishing them to be watching and sober (spiritually), nor alseep (spiritually) for that time leading up to the day of the Lord.

I agree, but that does not negate the fact that he has just taught them they will be Raptured.

Amazing, really.

It is by being "sober" and not asleep in the night how the "day of the Lord" will not take His by surprise.

So you disagree with Paul and believe the Church is appointed to that wrath. You disagree with Christ that we will be kept from that hour (not temptation)?

Paul is not talking about what they are doing in the Tribulation, but what they, and we...are to be doing every day. That is why the fact that Paul speaks to them about the tribulation they are going through is not the Tribulation itself is so significant.

Instead what you've done is to insert a pre-trib rapture there instead.

Not at all, simply reiterated what Paul teaches here. The Pre-Trib Rapture is actually in ch.4, and in this chapter what was in view is the fact that they, and we who are alive at this point...are not appointed to wrath that is to come, which the Thessalonians thought they were going through. Paul will deal with this same error in his second Epistle to them.

Furthermore, that "wrath" Paul speaks of is God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked on the "day of the Lord" timing.

Incorrect, the Day of the Lord properly refers not just to the coming of Christ, but to the events themselves. I would suggest a study of "the Day of the Lord," which can be accomplished by going to Strong's Online Concordance and typing in that phrase.

Why the Pre-Trib view is the most tenable is that in order for a post-trib view to work, there would have to be physical believers who are not caught up to populate the Kingdom.

And that isn't there. Only those born again will enter into that Kingdom, and all unbelievers will be destroyed. Nothing that offends will enter into that Kingdom.

It is not... about the "great tribulation" timing which occurs prior to God's cup of wrath.

The Tribulation is God's cup of wrath, Salty.

That is the specific day of wrath Paul is speaking of that we are not appointed to.

Sorry, no. Again, look at the fact that they thought they were in it, and Paul saying, "No, you're not. You are only experiencing the tribulation I already told you to expect.

The two are distinguished from each other.

In 2 Thess.2, Paul makes it clear about the coming of Christ and the gathering being linked to the day of the Lord:

2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Salty: that word "Christ" in verse 2 is actually the Greek word for 'lord' (kurios),

First, understand that there are two events spoken of, Christ's coming and our gathering to Him (which Paul taught in the First Epistle), and the Day of the Lord.

Secondly, again Paul is saying "You're not in the Tribulation."

Third, it is absurd to think that the Thessalonians are thinking...that Christ has physically returned. Think about that, Salty, because that is what you are making the text to say. That the Thessalonians think Christ has already returned...while also thinking that the Tribulation is in process.

Do you understand how that can't work?

What they are concerned about is that they have missed the Rapture.

Paul is referring to the "day of the Lord" he spoke of in the 1 Thess.5 chapter from the OT prophets.

I agree, however, I do not limit the Day of the Lord to the Return only, even as it is not limited in the Old Testament.

Consider:

2 Thessalonians 2

King James Version (KJV)

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

In other words, in view in their concern is that they have missed the Rapture, because if Christ had physically returned...they wouldn't need Paul to say "Hey, by the way, those guys telling you the Lord returned...it's not true."

We know the Lord's Return, the Second Coming, will be known by everyone. So what is Paul addressing?

Their fear that the Rapture had taken place, the same issue he deals with in the first Epistle.

If you read the above passage and consider that the proof given is not the Lord's Return, but the coming of Antichrist...you will be forced to admit this.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

Paul made no distinction there about that event.

In point of fact he does, he distinguishes the Lord's coming and our gathering to Him (first statement) with what cannot have happened...the Day of the Lord.

Pointing out that many manuscripts have kurios does not help your argument, but hinders it, because that is where the distinction you deny is made.

He taught the day of Christ's second coming and our gathering to Him as the same event.

I agree, then he distinguishes it from...the Day of the Lord.

Check it, you will see.

Paul then continues in that 2 Thess.2 chapter to teach that the great falling away and the revealing of the Antichrist must both... occur first,

Correct...and this is the evidence he gives for the Tribulation not being in process. Understand? He is saying "You are not in the Tribulation, the Day of the Lord has not come, because, if it were occurring now...there would have been a falling away and the Antichrist would be on the scene."

And none of that had happened yet.

prior to Christ's coming and our gathering to Him.

You have reversed the order. The coming of Christ and our gathering to Him...comes first, then...the Day of the Lord.

You have Paul saying "Concerning the Day of the Lord and the coming of Christ and our gathering unto Him."

You can't change what is written.

That Scripture timing is very, very clear on the timing, since Paul was clearing up a misconception some there had from false ones among them (per 2 Thess.2:3).

Correct: they believed that they had missed the Rapture and were in the Tribulation, which was impossible because there had been no falling away and no Antichrist at that point.

Now let's back up to ch.4 and see this in the context of the previous teaching:

Salty: let's not back up,

No let's do...again.

Because this is where we establish the distinction between the wrath of the Tribulation and the tribulation we have been appointed to:

1 Thessalonians 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;

2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

And when Paul makes it clear that the wrath to come is the Day of the Lord, we again see he is telling them..."You're not in the Tribulation."

because the 1 Thess.4 Scripture gives no specific time markers,

It absolutely does: it makes it clear that because we are all, note that, all of us, alive or dead, going to be raised at the same time, and, because he is telling them that they are not going through the Tribulation...we know it has to be before the Tribulation.

but only the event details of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church both from Heaven and from the earth.

Both alive and dead are resurrected on the earth: the bodies of the dead saints are here on earth, Salty, not in Heaven.

When the Lord comes again...we will already be with Him.

The 1 Thess.5 chapter is where Paul gave time markers linked to the "day of the Lord",

Well the Revelation thingy denies that. And even in that John whatchamacallit we could see reference to Christ personally gathering the Church.

which he drew from the OT prophets. That is also where he got the idea of that "Peace and safety" and "sudden destruction" upon the wicked.

Actually, everything Paul wrote he received from God. He did not, like some people, just string a bunch of vague quotes together to build doctrine.

We back up again:

1 Thessalonians 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;

2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

Now here we see Paul distinguish between tribulation which he has already told them they would go through, and the tribulation associated with the Day of the Lord.

Salty: your argument there is moot,

It is to those that do not want to test their doctrine according to Scripture.

And again, it must have gotten through to some extent, because you incorporate this point into your own comments.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

because in 1 Thess.3 Paul indeed is speaking of the tribulations they at that time were having, as he was confirming their Faith for that time.

And the point Paul is making?

"You are not in the Tribulation, this is just temporal tribulation which you have already been told you would go through."

There is no link there to the "great tribulation" event our Lord Jesus forewarned of,

There is, you simply refuse to consider Paul's teaching in the fuller context of the entire Epistle, as well as with the teaching in 2 Thessalonians.

Paul speaks about the same event the Lord speaks of in Matthew 24, all of which is Tribulation, distinguished at the mid-point, when the Abomination of Desolation takes place, as being great tribulation from that point on. Those who distinguish the first half as Tribulation and the second half as The Great Tribulation do so based on the Lord's words here. But all of it refers to the same seven year period.

nor the "day of the Lord" events Paul covered later, but only the idea of their being presented to Christ blameless on the day of His coming (1 Thess.3:12-13).

If you won't see the fuller context and how it applies to chs.4-5, there is nothing I can do about that. There is a clear distinction between what they are going through and the events that will take place at a future date.

Now let's see if we can make this tribulation fit what he says in ch.5:

1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

(Insert missing verses 5-8 here, instead of taking away from God's Holy Writ)

Nice attempt to deflect, but I am going to have to insist on the point: you cannot make the tribulation Paul refers to (that they are going through) be the same tribulation he speaks about here.

And that is what you are doing by insisting that the Church does go through that wrath.

And you can dispense with comments like this. If you cannot understand a point being made and specific passages used to make that point, much less address them, then at the very least don't accuse me of "taking away" from God's Word.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Again...dead or alive, we will be with the Lord, rather than in the Tribulation. He makes this point twice.

Two entirely different issues: the first is tribulation which they should already know they are going to go through, and the second the wrath of God poured out on the children of darkness.

The first they will go through...the second they will not. Chapter Four tells them why they will not go through the wrath of the Day of the Lord.

Salty: we are agreed that those in Christ are not appointed to God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked,

Which is one thing that is so amazing about people who think the Church will go through the Tribulation: if that is true, then we have been appointed to that wrath, because in the Tribulation, both believing and unbelieving will die, hence the raising of the Tribulation Martyrs.

So no...we don't agree, you don't actually believe this. If you try to say that the Church will be protected from this wrath then you have missed this fact.

but the issue you're having is your doctrine from men

Call it what you like, you still have not given one passage that has a resurrection of the entire Church at the Return of Christ.

tries to separate the day of Christ's coming to gather His saints apart from that same day that God pours His wrath out upon the wicked.

Which day? Are you forgetting that the Tribulation is a seven year period?

It is not I that separate the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him and...the day of the Lord. It is Scripture that does that.

All the pre-trib rapture theory does is assume that means physical escape to not suffer that wrath on the "day of the Lord", but that's not what Paul said there at all.

The Rapture is a resurrection, Salty. lol

There is no wrath to escape from. We are not appointed to wrath which Paul speaks of as the Day of the Lord. It's really very simple.

And you have no Scripture that places a resurrection at Christ's return...except the First Resurrection of Revelation 20, which has been repeated over and over.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

Instead, he admonished them to remain sober and watching leading up to that day of the Lord, and even to not fall into that "Peace and safety" mindset he showed the deceived will be saying.

That is not a mystery, lol.

And they are to be doing this in the here and now. Doesn't impact the Rapture at all.

More about that "Peace and safety" those who sleep in the night will be saying in that time:

in Matt.24 our Lord Jesus pointed to the tribulation with that peace and safety timing (Matt.24:6). It was first given in the Book of Daniel about the false one who will come and destroy using peace. That is the event Paul is admonishing the brethren to remain sober through, to not fall asleep (spiritually) like those deceived who will be saying that "Peace and safety". Paul even uses that idea of sleep like one drunken in the night from the OT prophets regarding the deceptions of the end time (see Isaiah and Jeremiah).

And we can see your error here, because Paul was not talking about the Tribulation or the Return of Christ, but the tribulation they were experiencing at that time, which he makes clear is neither the Tribulation or the Return of Christ.

It's not even the Rapture.

This is where Paul was pulling from also about that "sudden destruction" event on the "day of the Lord" with those deceived saying that, "Peace and safety". But how the pre-trib doctrinists just whisk past those OT Scripture associations there that Paul makes from the prophets about the end leading up to Christ's return.

Paul made it clear that the Day of the Lord had not come by saying in the first Epistle that they would be raptured, and in the second, because he had to once again comfort them because of false teachers, that there must first be a falling away and the coming of Antichrist, who could not come until the restraint was taken out of the way.

And no-one is neglecting Old Testament Prophecy, it's just that some of us can distinguish between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

The Lord tells why overcomers will not go through that time here...

Revelation 3:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Salty: I've already covered how Christ's Message to His elect of the Church of Philadelphia is about their being kept from temptation by the coming Antichrist,

Read it again, Salty, it is not temptation that we are kept from, but the hour...

Revelation 3:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

It is the hour of temptation that the Lord will keep us from. Understand that, and recognize your failure to properly identify what the Lord keeps us from here.

and will not bow in worship to him, but instead will wait on Christ's coming to gather them at the end of the tribulation.

Sorry, no. No mention of the Church in the events for the specific reason that the Lord will keep us from that hour.

There is no parousia or harpazo ("caught up") event given in that Message, only how He promised they will not be deceived.

Read it again, Salty:

Revelation 3:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Where do you see they will not be deceived?

Revelation 3:9-10

King James Version (KJV)

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Those that overcome are contrasted with falsely professing "Jews."

The Hour in view will come upon all the world. Not some of the world, not part of the world, but the whole world. Now, in light of the fact that this precedes the very events of the Tribulation...

...what hour do you think is in view, and will you admit that it is the hour, not temptation, which the Lord keeps overcomers from? If you cannot do that, even to yourself, then you are denying what is evident in the Word of God. It is the Hour, not temptation...the Church does not go through.

God bless.

[S.T. Ranger]

I never denied living on the earth after a resurrection. I gave the example of Lazarus to distinguish between bodily resurrection and the redemption of the body we call glorification, the first of which is the Resurrection of Christ.

And again, The quote from Zechariah does not mention resurrection. You are imposing something into the text which is simply not there. So be more careful about charging others with fallacy.

Furthermore, since you endorse Darby's 'Pre-trib secret Rapture' theory per your post on another thread, accepting that theory means accepting Darby's dream of Christ gathering His saints to live in Heaven during the tribulation, and then returning after the tribulation, an idea which is not written in God's Word. Jesus returns one time, on the Day of The Lord. That's the timing Apostle Paul gave in 1 Thess.5 and 2 Thess.2, which also agrees with the timing given at the beginning of Zech.14.

Again, this is not Darby's invention, simply a teaching directly from the First Century, revealed by Paul.

Salty: it is an invention by Darby, because none in the early Church ever... taught Christ comes to gather His saints PRIOR to the "great tribulation". Yet that is exactly the pre-trib teaching by Darby in 1830's Britain, and the first time any Church held to that kind of pre-trib idea, even as you have already admitted in other posts here.

This is getting a little ridiculous.

I will have to insist that you be a little more detailed instead of cherry-picking through the responses, and ask that you refrain from poorly quoting and writing within the quotes. That only confuses things for those that read.

Again with the Darby Argument. I notice that you have not mentioned the quote I gave from Irinaeus. Why is that, Salty?

So let's keep the early Church father's belief of a rapture after the tribulation vs. Darby's later invention of a rapture prior to the tribulation straight, shall we?

Your mistake is to have Christ returning twice. When He returns, He will return just as He went, as described in Zechariah 14.

As already mentioned...no mention of resurrection in either of the two posts you have offered.

Salty: and as I mentioned about that in Zech.14 with Christ returning will all His saints there to Jerusalem on earth how He ascended, that is... about the time of the resurrection Paul spoke of in 1 Thess..4 and 1 Cor.15. One cannot exclude the resurrection in that because that Zech.14 coming with all His saints is dependent upon the 1 Thess.4 harpazo event.

Even Enoch of the OT, the seventh from Adam, preaching that timing of Christ coming with His saints on the "day of the Lord" event...

Jude 1

¹⁴ And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,

¹⁵ To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

Did you catch that timing there, "To execute judgment upon all..."? That is about the "day of the Lord" timing, not the tribulation timing when the Antichrist and wicked are still reigning on earth. That is a direct link to the timing Jesus gave in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 also, the day of His coming which includes the time of His gathering of His saints.

You seem to completely miss the fact that we return with Christ, or in other words...we are already with Him.

So show me where the Church is resurrected and then caught up in any passage concerning the Second Coming?

1 Corinthians 15:48-52

King James Version (KJV)

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

As mentioned repeatedly, here we have what Paul calls a mystery, a previously unrevealed truth. What that means is that the general resurrection taught in the Old Testament...cannot be what Paul has in view.

Salty: Oh, but a general resurrection is also what Paul is covering there also, for have not the wicked also borne that "image of the earthy"? They also will bear that "image of the heavenly", because they too will be changed to the "spiritual body" on that day of Christ's coming to gather His Church.

No, Salty, you are going off the rails here: You have everyone in glorified bodies in the Kingdom...including the wicked.

And this is the express purpose of the OP: to show how untenable a Post-Trib view is because of this one simple fact.

It is doubtful you will learn anything from this unless you are willing to start being honest about this.

No-one, I mean no-one...thinks that the dead are raised and live in the Kingdom. That is contrary to every teaching we have concerning both the Kingdom and the Great White Throne Judgment.

Continued...

Edited December 24, 2014 by S.T. Ranger

[S.T. Ranger]

1 Cor.15

²² For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

One must pay close attention to what Paul said there, because even the wicked all die too because of Adam's fall. But Paul was particuarly covering what will occur to those in Christ in that 1 Cor.15 chapter, even though he knew those that go into the "resurrection of damnation" will also be changed on that day (as per John 5:28-29 and Isaiah 25).

Most were aware of the resurrection (regardless of whether they believed it or not, but...not one person knew about this event, which unlike the Second Coming events...occur in a moment, in the twinkling of the eye.

The events of the Second coming take place over a period of time. Based on Daniel, the events that occur while the Kingdom is established have a 75 day window:

Daniel 12:6-12

King James Version (KJV)

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

"A time, times, and half a time," according to the Jewish calendar, is 1260 days.

We then have 1290 days, which is a thirty day difference.

We then are given 1335 days which is a 75 day difference.

This time begins at the time of the abomination which makes desolate, that starts the countdown. The extended days correlate to the events described in regards to the Lord's Return (v.11).

But the Rapture takes place immediately. In a moment, the twinkling of an eye. That there is no resurrection mentioned in connection with the Lord's description of events (apart from those who die during the Tribulation), coupled with the fact that we know the Sheep and Goat Judgment, which deals with both believers and unbelievers, will not take place in a moment, and adding the fact that the resurrection of the dead described just prior to this passage...

Daniel 12

King James Version (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

...the obvious conclusion to draw is that two events must be in view.

Salty: the obvious error you make in all that is by moving the harpazo event apart from the day of Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord". In Daniel 12, that 45 and 75 days is for after... Christ's second coming and the gathering to Him, and into the Millennial timing.

Per Daniel, and the "abomination of desolation" event association Christ gave in His Olivet Discourse, the tribulation occurs within the last 1260 days period, which is also given as a time, times, and a half (or 3.5 years). The 1290 and 1335 days are thus after... Christ has come and ended the 1260 days.

[-----1260 days----------][----------------day of the Lord---------------][--1290------][----1335------]

[-------tribulation---------][---Christ's coming and the gathering---][-cleansing-][--blessing---]

Since you believe that everyone is raised at the end of the Tribulation and that the wicked receive glorified bodies at that time as well, I am going to have to let you go in this discussion. This is just ridiculous.

The emphasis refers to the Tribulation, as seen also here:

Matthew 24:15-21

King James Version (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel 12 refers to the Tribulation, so Paul cannot be talking about the resurrection spoken of in vv.1-2. It would not be a mystery if this is what Paul has in mind, because this was common knowledge. In v.1 it should be noted that Michael, the great prince of Israel will stand up and Israel will be delivered. We do not have to impose the resurrection of the dead (unjust) at the time of deliverance, and we don't because Revelation 20 makes it clear there is a thousand year period between the return of Christ and the raising of those that will be consigned to Hell (the Lake of Fire) for eternity:

Salty: so your basis for inserting a pre-trib rapture is because of the 'mystery' Paul spoke of? That's laughable, because it was the detail of HOW those in Christ would be gathered per 1 Cor.15 that he is calling a 'mystery'; that none of the OT saints knew about nor understood, specifically because that detail was not yet... given to the OT saints.

Laugh it up: again...everyone knew about the resurrection of the dead, yet, like you, they all expected it to be on one day.

You nullify the mystery Paul teaches and worse...extend that to unbelievers as well. This is a universal view and it is heresy, and in conflict with the events as described in Revelation 20.

What is interesting is that, in your attempt to defend your doctrine, you completely throw out what Scripture teaches, even after several pages of having the distinction between the resurrection of Tribulation Martyrs and the dead mentioned repeatedly.

Concerning the timing when Michael shall 'stand up' per Dan.12, that is about the great tribulation timing when the dragon is cast down to the earth by that war in Rev.12:7 forward. It is that old serpent being cast down to the earth with his angels in that time which will begin the "great tribulation" event our Lord Jesus proclaimed. But the next phrase separated by a colon after that time of trouble, is the time of Christ's coming and the resurrection:

Dan.12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Notice the colon separates the two subjects there. Got to rightly divide, because our Lord Jesus in Matt.24 revealed that time of trouble upon us for the tribulation time, in association with the "abomination of desolation" event, and then after the tribulation declared His coming and gathering of His saints.

Revelation 20:4-5

A colon doesn't separate two subjects, Salty.

Maybe this will help you to understand the function of a colon (from Wikipedia):

(notice my use of a colon back there? lol)

The colon is a punctuation mark consisting of two equally sized dots centered on the same vertical line. A colon is used to explain or start an enumeration. A colon is also used with ratios, titles and subtitles of books, city and publisher in bibliographies, business letter salutation, hours and minutes, and formal letters.[1]

The most common use of the colon is to inform the reader that what follows the colon proves, explains, defines, describes, or lists elements of what preceded it. In modern American English usage, a complete sentence precedes a colon, while a list, description, explanation, or definition follows it. The elements which follow the colon may or may not be a complete sentence: since the colon is preceded by a sentence, it is a complete sentence whether what follows the colon is another sentence or not. Some writers prefer to capitalize the first letter after the colon; others do not. Both are correct in American English usage.

Now go back to your commentary and see how understanding what a colon is used for impacts what you say.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This is the only resurrection associated with the return of Christ, and it is specific to those who have not "worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands." In other words...only tribulation Martyrs can be dogmatically stated to being glorified when Christ returns and establishes the Millennial Kingdom. We could debate whether they are raised in glorified form, because in the Kingdom, a bodily resurrection (as opposed to glorification) can just as equally result in a thousand year life due to the fact that in the Kingdom life-spans will be greatly increased, restored to the life-spans we see in men closer to creation (Adam, Methuselah, et cetera).

Salty: yes, many get confused about that idea of the dead not living again until the thousand years is over, which is not about any idea that the wicked are not resurrected to go through Christ's thousand years reign, especially since Rev.20 reveals the spiritually dead on earth dwelling outside the "camp of the saints" on earth, and that DURING Christ's thousand years reign with His elect.

Problem is, in John 5:28-29 our Lord Jesus declared the wicked of the "resurrection of damnation" manifesting on the same day of His coming that the Just of the "resurrection of life" do.

No, Salty...no-one is confused about the dead not living again until the thousand years are over, because it is not something difficult to understand.

You erroneously make the Eternal State part of the Millennial Kingdom.

And sorry, there is nothing in Revelation 20 about "the spiritually dead on earth dwelling outside the 'camp of the saints' on earth, and that DURING Christ's thousand years reign with His elect," because halfway through ch.20 this universe passes away.

Because you are cherry=-picking the posts and not addressing the obvious errors of your doctrine, they are continually getting worse as you try to support your doctrine, and it seems pretty clear that there is a desperation in trying...not to be wrong.

And it's just not working.

Many misunderstand the meaning of that Rev.20:5 passage because of thinking with their fleshy mind, like you're doing. When Jesus returns to gather us, on the Day of The Lord, that will begin His thousand years reign on earth with His saints. And on that Day, man's works are burned off the earth by God's consuming fire, ending this flesh world time. Thus Rev.20 is after... that consuming fire event on the earth, and the change to the "spiritual body" Paul preached, including upon the nations per Isaiah 25 where he was pulling that death swallowed up in victory idea.

Sorry, no, but the elements will be burned up when this universe passes out of existence and the new heavens and earth arrive.

You need to distinguish the events, and if you will simply follow the chronological order of Revelation and correlate it as well as harmonize it with Old Testament Prophecy, much of this confusion will abate.

Isaiah 25

⁵ Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

⁶ And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

⁷ And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

⁸ He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

⁹ And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."

That... is where Apostle Paul was pulling from when teaching about the resurrection in 1 Cor.15, as he was actually covering BOTH... resurrection types, the "resurrection of life" (Christ's sheep) and the "resurrection of damnation" (goats).

That face of the covering, and vail spread over all nations, is about the limitations of this flesh world time being... removed, with all being in a resurrection type body, both the just and the unjust, and the heavenly revealed to all.

And again we go back to the OP. Your doctrine makes everyone to be glorified which means that there is no-one to populate the Kingdom that have offspring that rebel against God.

The unbelieving dead clearly do not receive bodies suited for eternal punishment until the end of the Millennial Kingdom. Not sure how you could misunderstand something as simple as this.

Continued...