appy Posted January 9, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 23 Topic Count: 133 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,864 Content Per Day: 0.62 Reputation: 2,596 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2015 God certainly wants us to all live in harmony, by being loving and helping one another. But that is not what makes us right with God. For even atheists do “good works”. Many religions teach a totally different Jesus and gospel than the one in the bible. And that is the major flaw in their theology. Good works do not ever supersede in what God has said is the way to him. ________________________________________________________________________ If you and I meet, and you forget me. You have lost nothing. But if you meet Jesus, and you forget him. You have lost everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 9, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2015 Name ONE mainstream denomination that threatens people with hell if they do not agree 100% with what their preacher/teacher says. The JW's disagree with you your understanding of scripture. The result is that you think they are condemned to hell. I really don't understand why you think salvation is impossible for JW's. They believe that Jesus died for their sins. Despite their mistakes, God is able to forgive them also, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 9, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2015 God certainly wants us to all live in harmony, by being loving and helping one another. But that is not what makes us right with God. For even atheists do “good works”. Many religions teach a totally different Jesus and gospel than the one in the bible. And that is the major flaw in their theology. Good works do not ever supersede in what God has said is the way to him. ________________________________________________________________________ If you and I meet, and you forget me. You have lost nothing. But if you meet Jesus, and you forget him. You have lost everything. Hi Giggling. The question in the topic is "are they Christian". In other words, are they Christ-like. Do they behave like Christians. Considering that Jesus taught A LOT about what it means to be his follower, I don't think it's an answer which can easily be based on one disagreement of doctrine. For example, someone may disagree that God, Jesus and the Holy spirit are a trinity, (being one and the same while separate at the same time). But what if they show love to their neighbor? Does a fault in one area cancel out good in another and is that really consistent with what Jesus taught? I agree that JW's have some wrong understanding in their theology. I agree that they can be pretty stubborn about it, too. However, if wrong understanding and a stubborn attitude are enough to send us to hell, then aren't we all doomed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Name ONE mainstream denomination that threatens people with hell if they do not agree 100% with what their preacher/teacher says. The JW's disagree with you your understanding of scripture. The result is that you think they are condemned to hell. The JW's are not going to hell because they disagree with my or anyone else's understanding of Scripture. JW theology isn't based on Scripture. They are going to hell because they reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ and place their faith in the teachings of their own leaders and their cult. They reject the teachings of Scripture and they reject the Gospel. I really don't understand why you think salvation is impossible for JW's. They believe that Jesus died for their sins. Despite their mistakes, God is able to forgive them also, right? The Jehovah's witnesses don't even believe that Jesus was raised from the dead. The entire Christian faith hinges on the literal bodily resurrection of Jesus. Without the resurrection of Jesus there is no Christianity. The JWs believe manifested himself in physical form to make it appear He was raised from the dead, and that would make Jesus a lair AND it would also deny Jesus' prophecies where He prophesied to His disciples that He would be resurrected. Not only that, but the resurrection of Jesus is God's stamp of approval on Jesus' sacrifice from sin. God accepted Jesus' sacrifice for sin and He raised Jesus from the dead and gave Him the Name above all Names to prove it. If Jesus is not raised from the dead as the JW's assert, then there is no salvation for them or for anyone else, either. Our salvation is based on Jesus' resurrection. Our hope that one day we will be raised is rooted in Jesus' actual resurrection. So no, they are not saved and the ONLY way they can be forgiven is to believe the Gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus from the dead. Outside of that, there is no salvation for them as long as they remain in that cult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 9, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2015 From what I can see, JW's believe Jesus died and rose again, but as a spirit rather than in a physical body. He pretty clearly had a physical body as he demonstrated to Thomas so I don't know why they insist that he rose as a spirit. It appears that he did walk through walls (i.e. the doors were were shut and locked and yet he appeared in the midst of the room where the disciples were gathered) so maybe that's why they think he was a spirit. I also made a mistake with one of my assessments earlier. It appears they do believe that Jesus was a man in the flesh (while he was alive) but that he is not God at the same time as being a man in the flesh. Anyway, ultimately it's God's salvation and he can do whatever he wants with it. I personally see heaps of examples of God being willing to overlook wrong (or even bad) theology if he can see a sincere, humble, loving spirit. Perhaps some JW's will be unsaved, but then again I think that's something which will most likely be true of all denominations. Or, perhaps a better way of making my point would be to substitute the good Samaritan for a JW and call it the parable of the Good JW. I think the basic lesson of the parable would still be the same no matter what classification of person you substitute there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appy Posted January 9, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 23 Topic Count: 133 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,864 Content Per Day: 0.62 Reputation: 2,596 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2015 Does a fault in one area cancel out good in another and is that really consistent with what Jesus taught? Yes, it does. The bible tells us to believe that Jesus died on the cross to pay our penalty, and rose again. Without believing that, a person can never become right with God. All their good works are done in vain. The major flaw is that the Jesus they believe in, is not the one in the bible. Their bible, teaches a different gospel altogether. ____________________________________________________________________ If you and I meet, and you forget me. You have lost nothing. But if you meet Jesus, and you forget him. You have lost everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zemke Posted January 9, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,028 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 451 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/24/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2015 God certainly wants us to all live in harmony, by being loving and helping one another. But that is not what makes us right with God. For even atheists do “good works”. Many religions teach a totally different Jesus and gospel than the one in the bible. And that is the major flaw in their theology. Good works do not ever supersede in what God has said is the way to him. ________________________________________________________________________ If you and I meet, and you forget me. You have lost nothing. But if you meet Jesus, and you forget him. You have lost everything. Hi Giggling. The question in the topic is "are they Christian". In other words, are they Christ-like. Do they behave like Christians. Considering that Jesus taught A LOT about what it means to be his follower, I don't think it's an answer which can easily be based on one disagreement of doctrine. For example, someone may disagree that God, Jesus and the Holy spirit are a trinity, (being one and the same while separate at the same time). But what if they show love to their neighbor? Does a fault in one area cancel out good in another and is that really consistent with what Jesus taught? I agree that JW's have some wrong understanding in their theology. I agree that they can be pretty stubborn about it, too. However, if wrong understanding and a stubborn attitude are enough to send us to hell, then aren't we all doomed? What you have said is a nice message and makes sense on a human fleshly level but Paul wrote a number of churches and even corrected Peter in front of others on actions and teachings that distorted the gospel. If you read what you have written you will notice a works based salvation. The leaders in Galatia put gentiles under circumcision mainly because they were avoiding persecution from the religious Jews but it led to lording over peoples flesh and a wrong understanding of the gospel. What you are saying is, believe in God and be a good human being and doctrine really doesn't matter. I believe the apostles would disagree with you. What may seem well intended and make sense at the moment "will" lead to bad things if doctrine is wrong. Every follower of David Koresh was an S.D.A. Simply worshiping on Saturdays as a credential for salvation is just a beginning of a journey down a bad road if not corrected. Paul corrected people out of love. "Don't go, stay true" There are Muslims that live good lives and believe Jesus was a true prophet and believe in God. You see where this leads, ecumenical unity. The gospel gets distorted and the power of God is the Gospel unto salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 From what I can see, JW's believe Jesus died and rose again, but as a spirit rather than in a physical body. Right and that means that they don't believe in the bodily resurrection that Christianity depends on to be true. He pretty clearly had a physical body as he demonstrated to Thomas so I don't know why they insist that he rose as a spirit. It appears that he did walk through walls (i.e. the doors were were shut and locked and yet he appeared in the midst of the room where the disciples were gathered) so maybe that's why they think he was a spirit. Jesus proved he was physical body by eating fish in front of His disciples. The JWs simply don't believe the Bible. Anyway, ultimately it's God's salvation and he can do whatever he wants with it. I personally see heaps of examples of God being willing to overlook wrong (or even bad) theology if he can see a sincere, humble, loving spirit. Perhaps some JW's will be unsaved, but then again I think that's something which will most likely be true of all denominations. God is not ambiguous about what it takes to be saved. It's not a let go, and let God kind of thing. God does as He pleases and He has told us what pleases Him. He didn't leave that up in the air. God didn't send Jesus to the earth to die the most horrific death possible and to go through all that He went through just to make salvation possible another way for those who reject His salvation. This not not about the JW's having bad theology. This is about them rejecting the very heart and basis for the Gospel of salvation. They reject the most fundamental doctrines regarding how a person is saved that are outlined in the Bible. Or, perhaps a better way of making my point would be to substitute the good Samaritan for a JW and call it the parable of the Good JW. I think the basic lesson of the parable would still be the same no matter what classification of person you substitute there. No, that would miss the entire point of the parable of the Good Samaritan and you are perverting Jesus' teachings, as well in the process when you take such an irresponsible approach to the Word of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 9, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2015 Yeah, Paul taught that people shouldn't boast about their good works, as though they are saved by their own goodness. Totally agree. And yet, God is a good God. It doesn't make sense to me that he'd want to save people who have no interest in being good. I personally try to be good because I believe God wants me to be good. I think if I was either indifferent to, or against being good, God could still save me, but I doubt he would want to. No amount of pleading the blood or saying "Lord, Lord" will convince God to save someone who has decided they have no interest in being good. Even things like saying the sinners prayer or reading our Bibles or going to church or singing praise songs amount to works, i.e. we must DO these things for them to have any meaning. Jesus won't come into our heart if we don't ask him. Helping the poor is a work. Preaching the gospel is a work. Confessing our sins and repenting of our wrongs are works; something we must do to show our sincerity. It's not the works which are the problem, but pride about our works. We can be proud about working sure, but we can also be proud about NOT working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 9, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2015 Okay Shiloh. I can see it's time to take a break from this topic. Maybe next time we'll find something with which we can agree more readily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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