How does Christ's death atone?

[Kan]

There is no question that the blood of Christ was that of an innocent man, and also that the sacrificial lamb in the OT was to be without blemish - symbolizing the innocent Messiah.

But the law requires that the guilty be punished and never the innocent.

 

When Moses lifted up the brass or bronze serpent in the wilderness, did it represent Christ on the cross or sin?

 

Was Christ made sin for us? Yes,

 

How?

[alisonm328]

Wow. So amazing!! Love everything you said and your perspective and the way you explain all of it is so inspiring. I'm such a "baby" in my walk Jesus. And i am still on milk, not ready for solid food! Lol so reading how you explained all of this was just beautiful. My explanation is soo... simple? Lol or elementary is a better word! God only revealed this stuff to me less than 2 weeks ago, so I'm very new in this stuff but what made me smile while reading your explanation on Christ's death and atonement, was knowing our understanding was given to us, we did not figure this stuff out on our own, but God actually revealed his wisdom to us. Isn't that so amazing? He gave us answers to questions and sent his answers straight to our hearts ( : OK I'll quit babbling lol sorry! Anything about God or Jesus gets me happy and babbling!! Have a great day everyone!

I'll try to answer the Q seeing that there is not much response at the moment.

Sin is never just a thought or an action without consequence. Consequences are a real part of the universe. God has made it that way for a reason, so that whatever is done is effective.

Imagine a world where the animals plants and human beings cannot have much impact, they fail of succeeding and having power in their realm because of limitations on all consequences.

So for any being or creature to have freedom, power and choice, it must be able to have real consequences to whatever it does.

God has made the universe on this principle, so that everything is effectual, it influences things around it.

This has another effect on the creature, that it too will be influenced by whatever is around it. The world is real to it.

This makes an interactive universe, all things relate and all things are effected and effectual.

The bottom line is that the biggest component in the universe is relationship, and ultimately the universe was designed for a relationship with God. God loves to care for it, and it responds to God on all levels from molecules to man.

Man was to be the pinnacle of that response from nature, and man was meant to stand as the representative of the entire world under his dominion.

Man was designed to have full impact on the the entire world, creatures would love his presence and respond to him.

When sin entered, his impact began to sour the landscape - a real consequence of having power and influence, and in turn God would have the elements of death coming from man and his world.

The effect of the universe on God is real. God is not a detached Person, but One that relates fully and honestly.

When a relationship suffers, the suffering is real.

The Bible says a broken bone a person can take but not a broken spirit.

The effects that sin would bring on man, hurt God as well.

So in order to remove sin from man, God has to take away the consequences of it which is death. If He does not let sin have its consequences He has created a universe which is not real but manipulated, and not based on the principle of love or a true relationship.

It would be a demonstration of a lie and not truth. Therefor God will and must let the consequences of sin fall on the perpetrator, to be true to Himself and to the principles of truth and genuine love.

As the giver of life, all life originates from Him and all the consequences of that given life return to Him.

A pure creation will return perfection and purity, but sin returns pain. God hates it with a vengeance, by choice and natural consequence of who He is.

He cannot maintain sinful man alive, unless the consequence is taken care of. So He becomes man, he rolls all human lives into one body and becomes that body. Hebrews 10:5.

There are no time and event barriers for God, so it does not matter when we live, it can always be the now for God, and so the substitution for man began the day Adam fell.

God took the consequences of sin onto Himself that day, on the basis that He would pay for it later. It does not matter when He does that, as far as we are concerned, because with God it is not a case of when but if, and it is done now as far as God is concerned.

But the sacrifice, did not just bring salvation, it bought a guarantee that sin and sinners unrepentant would be destroyed. God would not accept the consequences of sin if it was permanent, so He will not always bear sin, but put the consequences on the objects that caused it. He would only accept the consequences of sin on the basis that He can destroy it.

And He does that because in the end He will destroy the author of sin and all those who cling to it, and thus God and the universe remain true to love, that it cannot abide sin or its consequences.

So in summary, God is the author of life which is fully interactive, sin causes real consequences in that universe, and those consequences are taken away from humanity, and returned to humanity.

But in the cross, we have humanity united in Jesus, receiving the consequences of sin which is death, for all that have sinned, but His resurrection is victory over the grave for everyone that accepts His death for them.

The Atonement is both destruction and life, the consequences of our sins, and the consequences of Christ's perfect obedience in our stead.

The substitution of Christ does not stop with removing our sins, it continues by giving us victory over sin.

[Kan]

The Atonement is amazing, it is a subject that even the holy angels desire to understand better. I Corinthians 4:9, I Peter 1:12.

 

What always puzzled me was the legal aspect. In a system of law, the law makers have the right to change the law if required. 

It follows that if God is the law maker why He would not change that law so that sin does not have to be condemned but accepted as part of life, and that way Christ need not have died.

 

It was because the law could not be changed or removed that sin remained sinful and God had no way of saving the human race except by the way He did.

 

The law of God must be different, in that it is a description of parameters which guard the values of life. Should those principles be changed in any way, then life could not exist, it would have an element of death in it.

 

The life that God has given the universe is not a weak life at all, but one that resists and attempts to overcome every dysfunction, which is what we see demonstrated in nature all the time.

 

So death, decay and dysfunction can be tolerated for a time, but not forever, eventually it affects the whole interconnected universe, especially because the universe goes on forever.

 

So in order for the universe to be able to withstand eternity it has to be perfect, and perfectly maintained.

God in His infinite wisdom made a perfect universe which is so easy to maintain because of that perfect functionality. The universe is built on infinite love and wisdom and never on brute force. It has an astounding super economy which produces surpluses so great that it virtually maintains itself.

 

All physical laws of the universe are governed by the principles of the Divine moral law or the ten commandments. For example, we see, generosity, precision, reliability etc. Which come under the laws of not stealing, having no other gods, no adultery, respectively.

 

So although the law is in the negative - "thou shalt not," they are the framework or bones of all the works of God.

Not stealing - is more than just not stealing, it is being generous, for a stingy person is not holy, but a burden to others and themselves. This generosity is the basis of randomness, variety, free production, creativity, resources, and so forth.

 

So in summary the law is unlike our legal system where laws can be changed at a drop of a hat, this Divine law is inside the ark under the throne of God and it represents who God is in character and how He will interact with all, and how He governs.

 

The essence of the law as you know, is to love God with all your heart and your fellow creatures as equals.

 

So if God was to change the law, He would be declaring His own character as flawed and changeable. But He says "I change not."

 

But every time I think of Christ as our atonement, my mind goes blank, I cannot fathom it or understand it at all.

[Augustine17]

Kan that post was INCREDIBLY intellectual. That resonated with me, and you are right. The 'law breakers' are a cancer to the perfect system and are destroyed. 'The tree that does not bear fruit is thrown into the fire.' As for the atonement, I think it just made it so that anyone who believes and accepts Jesus would be able to be converted by Him from cancer to builder (obedient) through supernatural power. Before he was there people could believe in Him but he was ... easier to be unaware of. I think him dying on the cross and having lived and done all that he did made him easier to identify and thus it would probably be harder for someone to slip away. Like, for example, his teachings may not have been taught as precisely in say, the days of Moses or Abraham so it may have been less noticeable to others. Anyone who believes in Him keeps his word. If a child read his teachings at a young age and believed in them - which would result in doing them he/she would have eternal life, while in comparison someone from Abraham's time might be more easily unaware. The mystery from days of old that he taught were then revealed, as it was prophesied about him:

 

So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world." - Matthew 13:35

 

"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead. - Acts 17:30-31 (in reference to a prior statement)

 

Furthermore, if anyone was forgiven, the law still demanded blood. Jesus' blood wiped all of that away. So his death atoned for many, since he saved the having to have blood paid (for example David's child was killed after sin with Bathsheeba even though he repented). Also he showed The Way and spoke mysteries that are made for the law of the universe like you stated Kan. 'When your brother hits you, offer him your other cheek'. It shows that hitting back is unproductive if it's just for the sake of getting even and not to produce some sort of future - it also shows trust in God that you can offer your body and know he will be able to save you from beyond physical death. Not to mention the amount of patience there is. 'Bless and do not curse.' - which is the message Jesus stated really helps too. Curse for the sake of curse is just a waste and is unproductive - unless it saves more than it destroys. Bless would be productive because it elevates the lower to a higher level so that there is symmetry. In a society where everyone obeyed such a law, which is complete by love, there would be many levels of peace compared to conflict - in fact conflict wouldn't even make it's self known unless there was a technicality and I doubt there would be anyways.

 

The second earth is filled with people who do obey such things, and the second earth is much better. Likewise, the Kingdom of Heaven is much better than the 'world' which inspires cancerous conduct.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Augustine17

[OakWood]

I am not sure what you are saying, because I have always thought that it was the blood of the guilty which must be shed, and not the blood of the innocent.

The law of God cannot condone the shedding of innocent blood.

 

It's different if the innocent offer their blood free of choice.

Yes, you're right, the blood of the guilty must be shed and not the innocent, but what if the innocent agrees to stand in your place?

 

Look at it this way - it's like me committing a crime and having to pay a very hefty fine, but a wealthy and charitable man agrees to pay the fine for me because I can't afford it. The wealthy man is not guilty of the crime, but through his own choice he agreed to pay on my behalf. If he was forced to do it by law, that would be wrong because I'm guilty and he isn't, but if he chose to do it of his own accord - that's different.

[Kan]

Kan that post was INCREDIBLY intellectual. That resonated with me, and you are right. The 'law breakers' are a cancer to the perfect system and are destroyed. 'The tree that does not bear fruit is thrown into the fire.' As for the atonement, I think it just made it so that anyone who believes and accepts Jesus would be able to be converted by Him from cancer to builder (obedient) through supernatural power. Before he was there people could believe in Him but he was ... easier to be unaware of. I think him dying on the cross and having lived and done all that he did made him easier to identify and thus it would probably be harder for someone to slip away. Like, for example, his teachings may not have been taught as precisely in say, the days of Moses or Abraham so it may have been less noticeable to others. Anyone who believes in Him keeps his word. If a child read his teachings at a young age and believed in them - which would result in doing them he/she would have eternal life, while in comparison someone from Abraham's time might be more easily unaware. The mystery from days of old that he taught were then revealed, as it was prophesied about him:

 

So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world." - Matthew 13:35

 

"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead. - Acts 17:30-31 (in reference to a prior statement)

 

Furthermore, if anyone was forgiven, the law still demanded blood. Jesus' blood wiped all of that away. So his death atoned for many, since he saved the having to have blood paid (for example David's child was killed after sin with Bathsheeba even though he repented). Also he showed The Way and spoke mysteries that are made for the law of the universe like you stated Kan. 'When your brother hits you, offer him your other cheek'. It shows that hitting back is unproductive if it's just for the sake of getting even and not to produce some sort of future - it also shows trust in God that you can offer your body and know he will be able to save you from beyond physical death. Not to mention the amount of patience there is. 'Bless and do not curse.' - which is the message Jesus stated really helps too. Curse for the sake of curse is just a waste and is unproductive - unless it saves more than it destroys. Bless would be productive because it elevates the lower to a higher level so that there is symmetry. In a society where everyone obeyed such a law, which is complete by love, there would be many levels of peace compared to conflict - in fact conflict wouldn't even make it's self known unless there was a technicality and I doubt there would be anyways.

 

The second earth is filled with people who do obey such things, and the second earth is much better. Likewise, the Kingdom of Heaven is much better than the 'world' which inspires cancerous conduct.

Yes, the value of the atonement has been equal in all ages, and as you've pointed out, not all saw it clearly as we can, with the privilege of hindsight.

 

The Atonement gives all, both repentant and rebellious, their initial life, because we know that life cannot exist without Him, and it is a moment by moment life, not just given once but continuously flowing from God. 

So the whole world has the gift of Christ running through their bodies, they are living because God made a sacrifice which could sustain man, while he was yet a sinner, and give him the opportunities to connect and have eternal life.

 

The atonement has given all a resurrection as well.

We are all given a free resurrection regardless of whether we accept Christ or not.

The righteous are raised for eternal life and the wicked for judgement followed by destruction - which is the second death.

 

Although the atonement has already provided life, its benefits are again multiplied to us in this life while we wait for a final redemption, by Christ the High Priest applying its values to our hearts and minds, through the experiences we have in life, which He weighs very carefully for every individual, whether righteous or wicked. So because of this extra work for sinners by Christ, everyone is able to be saved as if there were no other human being on earth.

 

It appears as though this world is left to roll the dice for its own destruction, but every moment in life, all are given the tender and sometimes fearful promptings of the Holy Spirit to repent and to find salvation. God is drawing all men unto Himself through Jesus Christ.

[Kan]

 

I am not sure what you are saying, because I have always thought that it was the blood of the guilty which must be shed, and not the blood of the innocent.

The law of God cannot condone the shedding of innocent blood.

 

It's different if the innocent offer their blood free of choice.

Yes, you're right, the blood of the guilty must be shed and not the innocent, but what if the innocent agrees to stand in your place?

 

Look at it this way - it's like me committing a crime and having to pay a very hefty fine, but a wealthy and charitable man agrees to pay the fine for me because I can't afford it. The wealthy man is not guilty of the crime, but through his own choice he agreed to pay on my behalf. If he was forced to do it by law, that would be wrong because I'm guilty and he isn't, but if he chose to do it of his own accord - that's different.

 

 

That's a great analogy for a substitute, and I'm sure you agree that in the case of the world the wealthy man did not just pay the fine but gave all His riches as well.

 

We are told in the Bible, that we will be joint heirs or co inheritors with Christ. So while Adam was to have dominion over this wonderful planet, the saints, including Adam, will now have a universe to share and look after.