PARTAILLY BELIEVING IN JESUS.

[Guest shiloh357]

Augustine, The Son and the Father are separate Persons, but the are both God, equally.   Jesus is co-eternal, and co-equal to the Father.   That's what the Bible teaches.

[Augustine17]

I believe they are not completely the same. However.. they are One. Furthermore, they are not equal. Jesus has the character of The Father.  Jesus is plain eternal. The Father glorified Jesus which proves He is not equal with Him in a sense. Jesus expressed: 'The Father is greater than I'. They are One in personality. That is why if you have seen The Son you have seen The Father. Also you typed persons shiloh357, and that is used to describe an individual. Person is a synonym for soul. They are One so that is not correct. They are not individual as in, they do not have anything to do with each other, or else they would not be One. If that was the case I could say that I am One with a stranger who is the opposite of me. If you think 'like father like son', with God being Father then that is a correct way to relate. Physically a son and father share qualities, and if the variable 'mother' is ignored they are identical genetically. Now if you take that and convert it into spiritual there you have it. Thus, The Father is greater than the Son, and God is One. Jesus said God is One. 

 

29"This is the most important," Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, the Lord is One. - Mark 12:29

 

Who can refute this or my prior information? Whoever believes in Jesus believes in all of Him, and if you do not acknowledge and believe in what he said, you do not believe in Him.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Augustine17

[Guest shiloh357]

No Augustine, you are wrong.   Jesus is God, equal to the Father, that's what the Bible teaches and that is the ONLY correct view on the matter.

 

Persons is not synonomous with souls.   Jesus is distinct in personhood   Jesus does not have a "soul."   God is not a soul.  Jesus is God  Jesus is one in essence but distinct in Person from  both the Holy Spirit and Father.  All three are equally God.   Your view is not biblical, is not Christian and are theological heresy.   You cannot believe that Jesus is not God and be a Christian.   Your teachings should be rejected by all true followers of Jesus.

[lavey.online]

@Thallasa I do not believe Jesus is The Father or literally God and he did not say He is The Father. He did not say 'I am God', that is apostasy to His belief. He said I and my Father are One. God and His soul are knitted together, and the character of Jesus is in all who believe in Him. I do not mean believe He exists, I mean truly believe in Him, as in to be a follower of The Way. It is through Jesus that we come to the Father. He and God have the same character. That is why anyone who has seen Him has seen the image of God in a sense. Have you ever even read this?

 

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell; - Colossians 1:18 - The Father gave/gives to Jesus every authority over what is created. Authority over all that is created, the care of those who The Father chooses/chose, The authority to shepherd believers of The Way (He is The Way), Eternal Life and the administration of it on all things created that are his sheep.

 

26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. - John 10:26-27 He gives them eternal life.

 

Jesus has the authority to rebuke and reprove the church, and I think there is more but I am missing it.

 

Also to support the statement prior:6 Jesus said to him, "I am The Way, The Truth, and The life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. - John 14:6

 

He even designates God as His Father. There is more about this that I can show but I do not need to. So if you believe He is God you do not believe in Him because He did not say He is God. He expressed He is The Way and that nobody goes to The Father except through Him. They are designated differently and it is a fact that The Father of Jesus is God. Thus there souls are knitted-together and He and The Father are One as He has said. Also see this:

 

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, - Ephesians 1:3 Another thing to reveal The Truth.

 

and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek. - Hebrews 5:10 - this also talks about Jesus. A priest is a mediator between God and the human. There is even more.

 

This was expressed by David prophetically. 

 

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. - Psalm 110:1 The Lord (I explained reasoning of 'The' in a prior post on this topic.) refers to God and the other Lord is Jesus. He is the one who is at the right hand of The Most High. His enemies are all who do not follow The Way. They will be made a footstool on the day The Lord carries out vengeance through Jesus.

 

I am by not trying to lower or reject the authority of my Lord Jesus Christ. God himself would be content to see that I explain to you who Jesus is, unless he does not want you to be His. I hope in explaining this I have pleased my Lord and my Father in heaven. He, Jesus, himself has expressed:

 

 28"You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. - John 14:28

 

Therefore anyone who believes Jesus is literally God is an idolater and does not believe what He himself has said. And if you believe in Him you believe in everything He said and is. If you believe that you believe the Father. If that is so you also believe The Father is God Almighty, The Most High, The Creator of all Created, The Great I Am. There are more things God Almighty is called but I can stop it at there. It is impossible to believe in Jesus and not his God. The scriptures testify to this. He himself does, and the Almighty God is aware of it all.

 

Please read other posts I have made on this topic, they are similar.

 

Tears are coming from my eyes about what Augustine is talking here ...   :: " @Thallasa I do not believe Jesus is The Father or literally God ... "

 

If suppose what he is talking is true as he thinks, then we the Christian missionaries in eastern nations are "fighting for nothing".

 

Enormous proofs are available throughout the Bible that Jesus is God and equal to Father.

 

Oh! Augustine I am praying for you .. Amen !

[Augustine17]

 What... you think Jesus does not have a soul, do you know what a soul is? The spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or entity. His soul is immortal, which is how before he was in human flesh he existed, but you refute this sound doctrine and deny that also, yet another thing you deny about Jesus. Where does the bible teach Jesus is literally equal with God? It doesn't. Yes, you are to honor the Son as you the Father (but not in the same measure). The Father is greater than he is. Jesus expressed it. The fact that you deny it shows you are an impostor. You call it heresy but do not even use scripture. Do you believe that hyped up worldly version of Christianity that teaches sinners go to heaven as well, which denies the repent or perish message Jesus preached, as well as John and The Apostles. You typed that God is not a soul. Soul is a word to describe mortal or immortality. God lives forever so that is a lie. If you mean he is not non-physical then that is a lie. God is Spirit. He is reality. Because He is not material, which Jesus stated, your theory is apostasy, if that was what you were getting at. God is not physical or He wouldn't be called invisible. Look at this: 

 

23"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.24"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." - John 4:23-24

 

Spirit, however, is something that is in every entity that is created that had or has a characteristic in it. This is Spirit: The component of character. When God gives the Holy Spirit he gives a Holy Character. This is a reality. Try to deny it. For example: God tormented Saul with an evil spirit. God gives the Holy Spirit to all who love Him. A deceiving spirit went to the people of Micaiah's time and deceived many who thought themselves prophets.

 

'I go away, and I will come to you ' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." John 14:28

 

You are believe there are three gods by believing God The Father, God The Son, God The Holy Spirit garbage. There is not one authentic version of scripture which harmonizes this trash.

 

14The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. 

 

The three are not called God.

 

5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, - 1 Timothy 2:5 

 

It's clear that you are not a follower of The Way. All of that scripture supports what I have posted. Also the stuff I have posted before can testify to it, with other things from scripture included with them. True believers do not believe in what you do at the moment, shiloh357. Believers in Jesus and God follow The Way.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Augustine17

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus does not have a soul.   Jesus is God and was God for all of eternity past.  The Bible calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8-9.   Jesus calls Himself by terms God uses of Himself in the OT (First and Last, Beginning and End) in Rev. 1:17; 2:8.   Jesus is called the "Mighty God in Isaiah 9: 6-7.   Jesus is referred to as "Lord" which is  term used for God in the OT.    There are numerous references to Jesus as God.  The term "Son of God" in the Greek is speaking of Jesus' deity.   Sorry, but if you don't believe that Jesus is God, you can't be a Christian.  That is simply non-negotiable.

 

God the Father is not greater than Jesus in essence.  God the Father is greater in rank.  But Jesus is the creator according to John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:15-17.

 

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in essence but are three persons.   One God, three Persons.  

 

The Holy Spirit is called God in Acts 5:3-4.  In those verses the Holy Spirit and God are used interchangeably.   Peter told Anais that when he lied to the Holy Spirit he had lied  to God. 

 

Sorry, but your views are simply not authentic Christianity and hopefully all who read this will reject your teachings.
 

[Mr Nice]

For those who claim to believe in the Oneness, please clarify what you mean.  If it is oneness of mind I can agree, but if they are all one and the same then your belief is not supported by scripture.  This is why it says in the beginning, let us make them in our image.  We were created as a completely faithful seed to obey God the Father just as Christ did.  We have a spirit just as Christ has a spirit for He said:

 

Luk 23:46  And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.

 

Joh 19:30  Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

 

What is missing then of their image in us?  No one can answer that question for Jesus and John says we don't know what that form is but those who have the hope of being transformed into that form purifies themselves as He is pure.

 

1Jn 3:1-3  See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.  (2)  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.  (3)  And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

 

Joh 5:37  "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

 

We must also notice that we are not called sons of Christ but sons of God just as Jesus is the Son of God.  We are called His brothers and sisters, heirs with Him.

 

Rom 8:14-18  For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.  (15)  For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"  (16)  The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,  (17)  and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.  (18)  For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

 

As far as Christ being God, Augustine has pointed out multiple scriptures indicating there is an inequality in the three.  They are not all equal but they are all of one mind as we are called to be of one mind.  If Jesus is God, please explain John 17 where Christ does nothing but give all the glory to the Father claiming He has only come to do the Father's will.  If Jesus is God then He would be saying He is doing His own will.  He also says the following about the only true God:

 

Joh 17:1-3  Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,  (2)  even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.  (3)  "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

 

Christ completely separates Himself from being referred to as God.  He says that they may know the ONLY TRUE GOD, AND Jesus Christ whom He sent.  Jesus is saying I am not God.  He also says that He came forth from the Father and that God gave Him the authority to grant eternal life.  All of Christ's authority came from God.  If Jesus was God, then He would already have all authority it would not have to be given to Him.

 

Joh 17:7-8  "Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;  (8)  for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

 

Joh 16:26-28  "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;  (27)  for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father.  (28)  "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father."

 

If Jesus is God why in the end will He be subjected to the Father?

 

1Co 15:22-28  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.  (23)  But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,  (24)  then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  (25)  For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.  (26)  The last enemy that will be abolished is death.  (27)  For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.  (28)  When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

 

This also further justifies my belief about Christ leaving His glory when He came down in the flesh.  Christ was able to be our sacrifice, not because He was deity or God as you claim, He was able to be our sacrifice because unlike us He did exactly as the Father commanded Him, learning obedience through the things He suffered.  His life in the flesh is what made Him worthy to become our faithful high priest.

 

Additionally, Christ did not think equality with God was something to be grasped.  Christ would not think this if He was God.  He also says He existed in the form of God which further makes a distinction between Himself and God.

 

Php 2:5-11  Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,  (6)  who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,  (7)  but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.  (8)  Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.  (9)  For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,  (10)  so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,  (11)  and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

We confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father, not of the Son.  Glory and honor goes to Christ because He obeyed, for it is at the name that God gave Him that every knee will bow.

 

Joh 17:11-12  "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.  (12)  "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

 

Christ receives glory because the Father glorified Him.  He did not glorify Himself.

 

Joh 17:5  "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

 

Joh 17:22-24  "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;  (23)  I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.  (24)  "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

 

If Christ was God then He would know the hour at which He will return.

 

Mat 24:35-36  "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.  (36)  "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

 

We are told that Christ is the exact representation of the nature of God, not God Himself.  Christ inherited a more excellent name.  Why would He need to inherit a name if he was God.

 

Heb 1:1-4  God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,  (2)  in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.  (3)  And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,  (4)  having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

 

Last but not least, the Bible does not say that we must believe Jesus is God but that He is the Son of God.  Big difference.

 

Jesus is the Son of God and He came to this earth to save those whom God has chosen.  It is only those who are led by the Holy Spirit who will be called sons of God.  All three are of absolute necessity, but there is only one true God, and that is the Father.  As you can see neither Augustine nor myself are denying that Christ is our savior, that He did come in the flesh, that He lived a life without sin through the Spirit to become our high priest and Way to the Father.  These scriptures cannot be denied.

[Augustine17]

Lord does not equal God just when it is used. Lord is a term used for a type of ruler. David even called Saul a lord.

 

⁸ Then David went out of the cave and called out to Saul, “My lord the king!” When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down and prostrated himself with his - a part of 1 Samuel 24:8

 

Also, every sin is enmity to God. That is why it is expressed that way. When Joseph was asked to commit adultery he responded to Potipher's wife this way: 

 

9"There is no one greater in this house than I, and he has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do this great evil and sin against God?" - Genesis 39:9

 

It is true that Jesus is the First and the Last because like God, he is. I stated this. That title is meant for only the two of them.

 

As for the prophecy in Isaiah, it does not say his name is all of those things. But he will be called them. The Father sort of expressed this:

 

6I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.7"Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes." - Psalm 82:6

 

See? Here we see that the sons of the Most High are princes. But yet they had been called gods. One of the names it says he will be called (Well, he has already been called, and I do mean Jesus) in the verse in Isaiah is prince of peace. Obviously it isn't literal. It is figurative. It is to show how the sons of the Most High are esteemed. It shows Jesus' character as well, being the same in character as God.

 

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. - Isaiah 9:6-7 It says his name shall be called and you have already typed him as God. If God called his sons God in Psalm 82:6 then he would do the same with his eldest. 

 

If He was God why is He called a child? Know what else shows this? One of the names is Prince of Peace. That is someone who is going to be king. God is the ultimate King. If it was Him, then Prince of Peace would not be a valid epithet, but king would be better. Also for everlasting Father, Abraham is called father of many nations, and the valid sons of Abraham are spiritual. Paul explained it. It was not the physical descendant that was a spiritual son of Abraham.

 

"Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be called. - Genesis 21:12 Isaac was the child of the promise, and it is through him they are reckoned.

 

It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. - Romans 4:13

 

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. - Galatians 3:28-29 He also did not mean a descendant that is physical, but children of the promise.

 

Jesus is everlasting, and in a way he can be considered a Father because in the body of Christ, other than God he is the oldest. He is also everlasting to everlasting. Isaiah never said what he was, but what he is called. Now will you believe in the right Way? shiloh357? This is true. God is Spirit, he was never flesh and never is or will be. Jesus said God is Spirit. He must be worshiped in Spirit. Isaiah details what Jesus is called, but Him being 'born' would yet again reveal that your ideology is wrong because God is Spirit.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Augustine17

[Guest shiloh357]

The Doctrine of Oneness teaches that the Father, Son an Holy Spirit are one and the same Person.  

 

Christianity teaches and believes that all three are one God, but three distinct Persons and all are co-equal in essence/being.  All three are equally deity.

[Guest shiloh357]

Sorry Augustine, but your response is nothing but sloppy hermeneutics.   If you deny the full deity of Jesus, you are not a Christian.  Christianity is rooted in the deity of Christ. 

 

Is. 9:-7 shows both the deity and humanity of Christ.  Every description of Him glorifies Jesus as God. 

 

When the term "Lord" is applied to Jesus, it doesn't merely men ruler.  It is a term that denotes His deity.