The Times of the Gentiles & The Fullness of the Gentiles

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Sister.

 

Greetings Retrobyter

 

Can you please consider this;

Actually, the “gospel of the kingdom” is not the same as that which produces “believers.” The “gospel of the kingdom” or the “good news about the Kingdom” is FAR different than what we call the “gospel” today. It is what the Jews knew from all the teaching they had about the coming Messiah who would reign over Israel in the future.

 

 

Matthew 7:28   And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

 

The gospel is this new doctrine Christ brought with him.  One they had never heard.  They did not believe that Christ was the Son of God sent from heaven, and refused to believe that he had the authority to forgive sins.  This is all new to them, and a new teaching they could not accept. 

 

 Matthew 22:33   And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

 Mark 1:22   And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.

  Mark 1:27   And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

  Mark 4:2   And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,

 

 

They continually tried to accuse him of breaking the sabbath, and their laws.  There laws were eye for an eye, and to stone someone who broke the commandments.  Christ was sent to change that law and teach them a better way.  Such things like;

 

- Revenge now belongs to God, and not man.

- The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath, Christ is Lord of the Sabbath.  You can do good on the sabbath also.

- It's ok to speak to samaritians and gentiles.  It's the sick that need the doctor.

- traditions have come of men, and not God

 

- He gave many parables that were not in the OT.  Therefore how could they know it?

 

The gospel is this;

That God sent his only begotten son into the world.  His name is Jesus Christ, and that through his name only,  can there by forgiveness of sins.

 

John 14:6   Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

The rules have changed now for them.  One rule they refused to accept.  That we must go through the mediator, the one God has chosen....Jesus Christ, as this is God's will.

 

 John 5:24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

 

The gospel was not before Christ, for he was that light that was sent into the world.  The gentiles accepted Christ more readily, for they were not filled with the old wine (old law), but the Jews had a problem with breaking their traditions.  They did not give Christ the recognition or honor he deserved, but rejected his new teachings.  These new teachings are all in the gospels.

 

Christ is the Word of God.  Everything he speaks is God speaking.

If we accept the Son, we accept God,

if we reject the Son, we reject God.  They are one.

All this was only revealed in the gospels and made really clear.

 

Please consider brother.

I will consider your other pointers, but leave it as this for now or it will be too long a reply.

 

Mark 8:35   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

 

Being “astonished at Yeshua`s doctrine” does NOT mean that it was indeed a NEW doctrine! His teaching was simply something that was far different than that of the P’rushiym or the Pharisees. It was a RETURN to the simplicity of following God’s will as He ALWAYS wanted them to do. They merely THOUGHT it was a “new” doctrine!

 

Now, vengeance (not “revenge”) has ALWAYS belonged to God:

 

Deuteronomy 32:1-44

1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.

8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

9 For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

11 As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings:

12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.

13 He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock;

14 Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.

15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.

25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:

27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this.

28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.

29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!

30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?

31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:

33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?

35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

44 And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.

KJV

 

Psalm 94:1-4

1 O Lord GOD, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself.

2 Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud.

3 Lord, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph?

4 How long shall they utter and speak hard things? and all the workers of iniquity boast themselves?

KJV

 

The truth that the Shabbat was made for man is FROM the Tanakh (the OT)!

 

Exodus 16:28-30

28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

KJV

 

All families of the earth were to be made happy (to be blessed/blissed) through Avraham! How is that possible if they couldn’t communicate with them? They were to HOST the ones who came as strangers into the camp!

 

Genesis 12:1-3

1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

KJV

 

Exodus 22:21

21 Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

KJV

 

Exodus 23:7-9

7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.

9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

KJV

 

Leviticus 18:26-28

26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)

28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

KJV

 

Leviticus 19:9-10

9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the Lord your God.

KJV

 

Leviticus 19:33-34

33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

KJV

 

Leviticus 23:23

22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the Lord your God.

KJV

 

Furthermore, they were WARNED against traditions that would steal their hearts away from God!

 

Isaiah 29:12-16

12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

13 Wherefore the LORD said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD  and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

KJV

 

You said, “The gospel is this; That God sent his only begotten son into the world. His name is Jesus Christ, and that through his name only, can there be forgiveness of sins."

 

But, there are MANY little problems in this statement:

 

First, His name is NOT “Jesus Christ”; His NAME was and is “Yeshua`,” a Hebrew name spelled “yod-shin-vav-`ayin,” which means “he-shall-deliver” or “he-shall-rescue.” It is NOT the same name as “Joshua,” as some teach! That’s a TECHNICAL ERROR that many who do not speak Hebrew make! They are SIMILAR names and they are based in the same FAMILY of words in Hebrew, but they are NOT THE SAME!

 

His TITLE is the “Christ,” a contraction of the Greek title “Christos.” The word means an “anointed [one]” or a “rubbed [one]” or a “painted [one].” This is the Greek translation of the Hebrew title “Mashiyach.” This word means the same thing in Hebrew, an “anointed [one]” or a “rubbed [one]” or a “painted [one].” From this title, we get the English title “Messiah” (or “Messias,” the English transliterated from the Greek transliterated from the Hebrew).

 

Second, the English word “name” in the Tanakh frequently comes from the Hebrew word “shem.” This word also means literally a “name,” but it also refers to one’s “authority." Thus, when we are instructed to “pray in Jesus’ name,” we are being taught to “pray in Yeshua`s AUTHORITY!” It’s not a vague, simplistic usage of the word; it’s a cry to God on His AUTHORITY!

 

 

Third, it is your OPINION that the “gospel is this: That God sent His only begotten Son into the world.” Based on WHAT SCRIPTURE?! We know that John 3:16 is an important verse, but are you truly aware of what was being said? Where, in that verse, does it say that it is the “gospel?” You’re spouting off the rhetoric you’ve been taught, but WHERE’S THE PROOF?! Be careful of using the teachings of men to support your opinion!

 

There’s much more to say, but that’s enough for now.

[Hearing1]

hebrew? aramaic? greek? hmmm

[Sister]

You said, “The gospel is this; That God sent his only begotten son into the world. His name is Jesus Christ, and that through his name only, can there be forgiveness of sins."

 

But, there are MANY little problems in this statement:

 

First, His name is NOT “Jesus Christ”; His NAME was and is “Yeshua`,” a Hebrew name spelled “yod-shin-vav-`ayin,” which means “he-shall-deliver” or “he-shall-rescue.” It is NOT the same name as “Joshua,” as some teach! That’s a TECHNICAL ERROR that many who do not speak Hebrew make! They are SIMILAR names and they are based in the same FAMILY of words in Hebrew, but they are NOT THE SAME!

 

 

 

Shalom Retrobyter

 

His name is different in every language.  In English we call him Jesus Christ.  That's the name that was translated for us. The name we know him as, and that's the name I love, that sits on the tip of my lips.

 

You can call him what his name is in Hebrew, that's fine, that's your language, it's the same Christ we are speaking of.  I don't speak Hebrew, nor identify with their language.  I know what God has shown me in my own tongue, and that is truth.

 

The one way to determine which God we serve, (for there are many gods worshiped), we have refer to his Messiah.  The one he sent.  No confusion now.  It's clear.

 

Mark 9:7   And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

 

 

No matter what his name is, this is the one we worship. 

If we go into detail, his real name is callled "The Word of God".  This is his true identity. 

Christ's name has also been blasphemed, and his name will go back to who he originally was....."The Word of God"

 

You have to also realise that God made it possible for his Word to be translated into all languages.  His hand was on this process.  We were not given his name in English to be trapped, but to be made free.

 

Concerning salvation and spiritual things, we all speak one language.  There is only one truth.

This is what brings us all together in him. 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Sister.

 

 

 

You said, “The gospel is this; That God sent his only begotten son into the world. His name is Jesus Christ, and that through his name only, can there be forgiveness of sins."

 

But, there are MANY little problems in this statement:

 

First, His name is NOT “Jesus Christ”; His NAME was and is “Yeshua`,” a Hebrew name spelled “yod-shin-vav-`ayin,” which means “he-shall-deliver” or “he-shall-rescue.” It is NOT the same name as “Joshua,” as some teach! That’s a TECHNICAL ERROR that many who do not speak Hebrew make! They are SIMILAR names and they are based in the same FAMILY of words in Hebrew, but they are NOT THE SAME!

 

 

 

Shalom Retrobyter

 

His name is different in every language.  In English we call him Jesus Christ.  That's the name that was translated for us. The name we know him as, and that's the name I love, that sits on the tip of my lips.

 

You can call him what his name is in Hebrew, that's fine, that's your language, it's the same Christ we are speaking of.  I don't speak Hebrew, nor identify with their language.  I know what God has shown me in my own tongue, and that is truth.

 

The one way to determine which God we serve, (for there are many gods worshiped), we have refer to his Messiah.  The one he sent.  No confusion now.  It's clear.

 

Mark 9:7   And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

 

 

No matter what his name is, this is the one we worship. 

If we go into detail, his real name is callled "The Word of God".  This is his true identity. 

Christ's name has also been blasphemed, and his name will go back to who he originally was....."The Word of God"

 

You have to also realise that God made it possible for his Word to be translated into all languages.  His hand was on this process.  We were not given his name in English to be trapped, but to be made free.

 

Concerning salvation and spiritual things, we all speak one language.  There is only one truth.

This is what brings us all together in him. 

 

 

Yeah, but in English most have FORGOTTEN that “Christ” is a TITLE! They erroneously believe that it’s “Jesus’” LAST NAME! It’s ridiculous!

 

Furthermore, we who speak English have seldom been taught what a “mashiyach" or a “christos” is! Did you know that Aharown (Aaron) was a “mashiyach” or a “christos?” Did you know that David was a “mashiyach” or a “christos?” Did you know that Shlomoh (Solomon) was a “mashiyach” or a “christos?” Yeshua` was NO DIFFERENT!

 

Do YOU know what it meant for anyone to be called a “mashiyach?"

 

Also, “Yeshua`” was His GIVEN name! Your Bible probably says “Jesus,” but did you know that “Jesus” is the OLDER King’s English pronounced “Yay-SOOS?” Did you know that it was a transliteration of the Greek name “Ieesous” (that is, spelled iota-eta-sigma-omicron-upsilon-stigma), also pronounced the same way? Did you know that “Ieesous” was a transliteration from Hebrew into Greek from the Hebrew name spelled “yod-shin-vav-`ayin” more accurately pronounced “Yay-SHOO-(g)ah?"

 

Would you call a Spanish-speaking fellow who was named “Jesus” “DZHEE-zus?” or would you call him the name he was given pronounced “Hay-SOOS?” Why should this Hebrew-speaking (or Aramaic-speaking) fellow be treated differently?

[Proof]

Without going back and reading the whole thread.... What would cause someone to thing that "Christ" is Jesus's last name? I saw retro's post and had to chuckle at the thought. And yes, like Retro said, "Yeshua" is His given name. By the time we keep translating the Bible further down the road, I'm sure we will eventually call Him something like "Steve" because we have to keep dumbing down the word to help people understand. I have issue with the NLT and the Amplified Bibles. I was raised on the NIV though I am perfectly capable of understanding the KJV.

 

Proof,

[Serving]

 

Shalom, Sister.

 

Greetings Retrobyter

 

Can you please consider this;

Actually, the “gospel of the kingdom” is not the same as that which produces “believers.” The “gospel of the kingdom” or the “good news about the Kingdom” is FAR different than what we call the “gospel” today. It is what the Jews knew from all the teaching they had about the coming Messiah who would reign over Israel in the future.

 

 

Matthew 7:28   And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

 

The gospel is this new doctrine Christ brought with him.  One they had never heard.  They did not believe that Christ was the Son of God sent from heaven, and refused to believe that he had the authority to forgive sins.  This is all new to them, and a new teaching they could not accept. 

 

 Matthew 22:33   And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

 Mark 1:22   And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.

  Mark 1:27   And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

  Mark 4:2   And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,

 

 

They continually tried to accuse him of breaking the sabbath, and their laws.  There laws were eye for an eye, and to stone someone who broke the commandments.  Christ was sent to change that law and teach them a better way.  Such things like;

 

- Revenge now belongs to God, and not man.

- The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath, Christ is Lord of the Sabbath.  You can do good on the sabbath also.

- It's ok to speak to samaritians and gentiles.  It's the sick that need the doctor.

- traditions have come of men, and not God

 

- He gave many parables that were not in the OT.  Therefore how could they know it?

 

The gospel is this;

That God sent his only begotten son into the world.  His name is Jesus Christ, and that through his name only,  can there by forgiveness of sins.

 

John 14:6   Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

The rules have changed now for them.  One rule they refused to accept.  That we must go through the mediator, the one God has chosen....Jesus Christ, as this is God's will.

 

 John 5:24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

 

The gospel was not before Christ, for he was that light that was sent into the world.  The gentiles accepted Christ more readily, for they were not filled with the old wine (old law), but the Jews had a problem with breaking their traditions.  They did not give Christ the recognition or honor he deserved, but rejected his new teachings.  These new teachings are all in the gospels.

 

Christ is the Word of God.  Everything he speaks is God speaking.

If we accept the Son, we accept God,

if we reject the Son, we reject God.  They are one.

All this was only revealed in the gospels and made really clear.

 

Please consider brother.

I will consider your other pointers, but leave it as this for now or it will be too long a reply.

 

Mark 8:35   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

 

Being “astonished at Yeshua`s doctrine” does NOT mean that it was indeed a NEW doctrine! His teaching was simply something that was far different than that of the P’rushiym or the Pharisees. It was a RETURN to the simplicity of following God’s will as He ALWAYS wanted them to do. They merely THOUGHT it was a “new” doctrine!

 

You are mistaken, Christ's doctrine was new.

 

Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

 

Hebrews 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

And this new doctrine / testament only came into force after Christ's crucifixion.

 

Yet ..now you may try and argue by saying, "Even so, the doctrine was known previously, just not yet enforced".

 

But that would still be wrong, for:

 

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

 

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

 

Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

 

The mystery is the doctrine of which many holy men & prophets desired to look into as stated in scripture but only got to see the effects of that doctrine without ever knowing said doctrine.

 

If I may ask .. exactly who taught you this strange thing you teach?

 

Also .. this whole thing about Jesus v's Yeshua is silly .. no doubt stemming from proud educated types trying to look chik with their newly discovered (to them) fancy pronunciations!! A completely bogus argument when being honest.

 

The Hebrews knew God's Name, they prayed in His Name and He answered .. but .. but .. even though they knew His Name .. what is the common complaint throughout the scriptures from God?

 

This is :

 

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.  

 

Did knowing Gods Name help the above group (not to mention all the other generations that knew His Name but did not know Him)

 

If God's word were a deep ocean .. this Name argument of yours is but a passing breeze unattached. 

 

God gave the Name of His Son to the English speaking tongues .. as .. Jesus.

 

I love this Name of my Lord that was given in my own tongue .. Jesus the Christ ..  which God gave us who speak that language, and I am not ashamed to declare it as it was given .. Jesus my Lord.

 

When I hear English speakers using the Name Yeshua, I can't help it, I think of back slappers and high fivers screaming out, "Look at me, look at me" like it were some new trend word they suddenly came across or a hopeful reflection of some higher education that has turned their tongues to silver with oh such eloquence!! LOL .. honestly .. I can't help it .. it's what I feel when hearing my fellow westerners say Yeshua!!

 

Honestly .. the water is much much deeper than the ripples caused by that particular passing wind my friend.

 

Nevertheless .. Cheers.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Proof of Your Love.

 

Without going back and reading the whole thread.... What would cause someone to thing that "Christ" is Jesus's last name? I saw retro's post and had to chuckle at the thought. And yes, like Retro said, "Yeshua" is His given name. By the time we keep translating the Bible further down the road, I'm sure we will eventually call Him something like "Steve" because we have to keep dumbing down the word to help people understand. I have issue with the NLT and the Amplified Bibles. I was raised on the NIV though I am perfectly capable of understanding the KJV.

 

Proof,

 

I really think that it is simple association with people today in the USA. Most everyone in the USA is named with two or three names at most (with some exceptions, like the Hispanic peoples). Almost everyone I know has a first name - a given name - and a last name - a family name. Most will also have a middle name - an honorary name - usually given to honor someone else in the family, or they will have a middle initial which MAY stand for a middle name but isn't necessarily so.

 

So, when someone says “Jesus Christ,” they will associate His name with the two-name system and think that “Christ” is a last name - a family name - while “Jesus” is His first name. If they’ve never been taught otherwise, this associative error may continue for several years, even a lifetime!

 

Others only know His name as curse words! It may take them years to hear about the TRUE meaning of His name.

 

When we use titles, we USUALLY put the title first: “PRESIDENT Reagan,” "CHIEF Sitting Bull,” “PRINCIPAL Andrews,” etc. The title MAY be tacked onto a person’s name at the end but most often with a comma: “Ronald Reagan, President of the United States.” Thus, it is also unusual for us to tack the title of the Son of God onto the end of His name without a comma: “Jesus Christ.” This is because the order doesn’t matter so much in the Greek from which the “New Testament” (or rather, the “New Covenant”) of our Bibles was translated, and we will often find such an order in the NT (e.g. Matthew 1:1). However, one will also see the order reversed, “Christ Jesus,” which is more in keeping with how we usually put the title first (e.g. Romans 8:1).

 

To compound the issue, we also tack on His title as our “Master,” “Lord,” at the beginning of His name: “Lord Jesus Christ,” or “the Lord Jesus Christ.” Now, we’ve got a title at the beginning and another one at the end! This confuses people, too, especially young kids! I even remember some of my friends when I was in grade school briefly thinking that “Lord” was His first name, “Jesus” was His middle name, and “Christ” was His last name! Try to sort all that out!

 

On a more personal note ... wow. “Raised on the NIV?” Everyone I knew growing up was “raised on” the KJV! Suddenly, I feel old.

[Sister]

Shalom, Sister.

 

Yeah, but in English most have FORGOTTEN that “Christ” is a TITLE! They erroneously believe that it’s “Jesus’” LAST NAME! It’s ridiculous!

 

Furthermore, we who speak English have seldom been taught what a “mashiyach" or a “christos” is! Did you know that Aharown (Aaron) was a “mashiyach” or a “christos?” Did you know that David was a “mashiyach” or a “christos?” Did you know that Shlomoh (Solomon) was a “mashiyach” or a “christos?” Yeshua` was NO DIFFERENT!

 

Do YOU know what it meant for anyone to be called a “mashiyach?"

 

Also, “Yeshua`” was His GIVEN name! Your Bible probably says “Jesus,” but did you know that “Jesus” is the OLDER King’s English pronounced “Yay-SOOS?” Did you know that it was a transliteration of the Greek name “Ieesous” (that is, spelled iota-eta-sigma-omicron-upsilon-stigma), also pronounced the same way? Did you know that “Ieesous” was a transliteration from Hebrew into Greek from the Hebrew name spelled “yod-shin-vav-`ayin” more accurately pronounced “Yay-SHOO-(g)ah?"

 

Would you call a Spanish-speaking fellow who was named “Jesus” “DZHEE-zus?” or would you call him the name he was given pronounced “Hay-SOOS?” Why should this Hebrew-speaking (or Aramaic-speaking) fellow be treated differently?

 

Shalom Retrobyter.

 

This verse should clarify it;

 

  Matthew 16:20   Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ

 

God invented language.  It all comes from Babel.  Babel = confusion.

He saw beforehand that man would bring their language rules into his Word to disrupt a simple message.

 

Is the Word of God for the educated or simple?

Are we trying to complicate that simple message?

Or do we just trust that God used men of his chosing to interpret the scriptures into a language we can all understand.

The English language has many descriptive words, more than the Hebrew or Greek. 

We can pinpoint the meaning of a word in a second, and not need to look at the context to see what word means what....usually.

 

So the message we give to others, is to go and seek what the Word of the Lord has to say, for in them we will find life.

Whatever our tongue, God has preserved his Word for everybody so that we can hear his message.

There's no need to complicate it, because educated men like doing this.  The one thing they forget is that it's the spirit that teaches, and not them.

 

God has everything covered, and made it possible for us to find him in our own language that we can understand.  He's done all that interpretation groundwork for us, and now all we have to do is read.

It's that simple.

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Serving.

 

 

 

 

Shalom, Sister.

 

Greetings Retrobyter

 

Can you please consider this;

Actually, the “gospel of the kingdom” is not the same as that which produces “believers.” The “gospel of the kingdom” or the “good news about the Kingdom” is FAR different than what we call the “gospel” today. It is what the Jews knew from all the teaching they had about the coming Messiah who would reign over Israel in the future.

 

 

Matthew 7:28   And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

 

The gospel is this new doctrine Christ brought with him.  One they had never heard.  They did not believe that Christ was the Son of God sent from heaven, and refused to believe that he had the authority to forgive sins.  This is all new to them, and a new teaching they could not accept. 

 

 Matthew 22:33   And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

 Mark 1:22   And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.

  Mark 1:27   And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

  Mark 4:2   And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,

 

 

They continually tried to accuse him of breaking the sabbath, and their laws.  There laws were eye for an eye, and to stone someone who broke the commandments.  Christ was sent to change that law and teach them a better way.  Such things like;

 

- Revenge now belongs to God, and not man.

- The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath, Christ is Lord of the Sabbath.  You can do good on the sabbath also.

- It's ok to speak to samaritians and gentiles.  It's the sick that need the doctor.

- traditions have come of men, and not God

 

- He gave many parables that were not in the OT.  Therefore how could they know it?

 

The gospel is this;

That God sent his only begotten son into the world.  His name is Jesus Christ, and that through his name only,  can there by forgiveness of sins.

 

John 14:6   Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

The rules have changed now for them.  One rule they refused to accept.  That we must go through the mediator, the one God has chosen....Jesus Christ, as this is God's will.

 

 John 5:24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

 

The gospel was not before Christ, for he was that light that was sent into the world.  The gentiles accepted Christ more readily, for they were not filled with the old wine (old law), but the Jews had a problem with breaking their traditions.  They did not give Christ the recognition or honor he deserved, but rejected his new teachings.  These new teachings are all in the gospels.

 

Christ is the Word of God.  Everything he speaks is God speaking.

If we accept the Son, we accept God,

if we reject the Son, we reject God.  They are one.

All this was only revealed in the gospels and made really clear.

 

Please consider brother.

I will consider your other pointers, but leave it as this for now or it will be too long a reply.

 

Mark 8:35   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

 

Being “astonished at Yeshua`s doctrine” does NOT mean that it was indeed a NEW doctrine! His teaching was simply something that was far different than that of the P’rushiym or the Pharisees. It was a RETURN to the simplicity of following God’s will as He ALWAYS wanted them to do. They merely THOUGHT it was a “new” doctrine!

 

 

 

You are mistaken, Christ's doctrine was new.

 

Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

 

Hebrews 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

And this new doctrine / testament only came into force after Christ's crucifixion.

 

Yet ..now you may try and argue by saying, "Even so, the doctrine was known previously, just not yet enforced".

 

But that would still be wrong, for:

 

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

 

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

 

Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

 

The mystery is the doctrine of which many holy men & prophets desired to look into as stated in scripture but only got to see the effects of that doctrine without ever knowing said doctrine.

 

If I may ask .. exactly who taught you this strange thing you teach?

 

Also .. this whole thing about Jesus v's Yeshua is silly .. no doubt stemming from proud educated types trying to look chik with their newly discovered (to them) fancy pronunciations!! A completely bogus argument when being honest.

 

The Hebrews knew God's Name, they prayed in His Name and He answered .. but .. but .. even though they knew His Name .. what is the common complaint throughout the scriptures from God?

 

This is :

 

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.  

 

Did knowing Gods Name help the above group (not to mention all the other generations that knew His Name but did not know Him)

 

If God's word were a deep ocean .. this Name argument of yours is but a passing breeze unattached. 

 

God gave the Name of His Son to the English speaking tongues .. as .. Jesus.

 

I love this Name of my Lord that was given in my own tongue .. Jesus the Christ ..  which God gave us who speak that language, and I am not ashamed to declare it as it was given .. Jesus my Lord.

 

When I hear English speakers using the Name Yeshua, I can't help it, I think of back slappers and high fivers screaming out, "Look at me, look at me" like it were some new trend word they suddenly came across or a hopeful reflection of some higher education that has turned their tongues to silver with oh such eloquence!! LOL .. honestly .. I can't help it .. it's what I feel when hearing my fellow westerners say Yeshua!!

 

Honestly .. the water is much much deeper than the ripples caused by that particular passing wind my friend.

 

Nevertheless .. Cheers.

 

 

 

 

First, let’s get this straight: The New “Testament” is NOT Yeshua`s “new doctrine.” Where did you come up with THAT?! You won’t find any verse in Scripture that equates the two. Therefore, your proof text of Hebrews 9:16-17 is a non sequitur. It’s NOT TALKING ABOUT HIS TEACHING (that’s what “doctrine” means)! It’s talking about HIS WILL (that’s what “testament” means) as in a document! When people die, their “will" takes effect. It was YOU who equated the two (without biblical support) when you said, “And this new doctrine / testament only came into force after Christ's crucifixion."

 

Second, I perceive that your “single verse” mentality is clouding your understanding. Look at the verses you’ve quoted! They are not even from a single BOOK let alone a single chapter! You are so wrapped up in a “topic” that you have negated the text! Guessing from the verses you chose, I’d say you looked up the word “mystery” and picked them from the concordance! All that word means is a “secret.” Do YOU have more than one “secret" in YOUR life? (That’s a rhetorical question. Don’t answer that.) READ THE CONTEXT! Just because all these verses use the word “mystery” does NOT mean that they are all talking about the SAME “mystery!"

 

Third, “doctrines” (or “teachings”) are NOT “enforced!” They are LEARNED!

 

Fourth, look carefully at Romans 16:25:

 

Romans 16:25-27

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

KJV

 

This highlighted phrase uses the Greek genitive case for the internal phrase “of Jesus Christ,” “Ieesou Christou.” The interesting thing about the genitive case is that it can be used both for the “possessive” or the “descriptive.” The ablative case, which is often similar to the genitive case, shows  “origin!” The problem is this:

 

Is this verse talking about Jesus’ preaching OR is it talking about the preaching ABOUT Jesus?

 

Can YOU see the difference? Can YOU tell from the English?

 

The key to knowing which one it correct is found in the rest of the highlighted phrase: “the preaching.” This comes from the Greek words “to keerugma."

 

Strong’s has this to say in the Greek dictionary:

 

NT:2782 keerugma (kay'-roog-mah); from NT:2784; a proclamation (especially of the gospel; by implication, the gospel itself):

KJV - preaching.

 

NT:2784 keerussoo (kay-roos'-so); of uncertain affinity; to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel):

KJV - preacher (-er), proclaim, publish.

 

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

 

Literally, it means "the heralding of Yeshua` Messiah.” Now, what was a “herald” and what does it mean for one “to herald?” Well, the dictionary I have says this:

 

herald |ˈherəld| 

 

noun

1 an official messenger bringing news.

2 a person or thing viewed as a sign that something is about to happen: they considered the first primroses as the herald of spring.

3 historical an official employed to oversee state ceremony, precedence, and the use of armorial bearings, and to make proclamations, carry ceremonial messages, and oversee tournaments.

 

verb [ with obj. ] 

be a sign that (something) is about to happen: the speech heralded a change in policy.

(usu. be heralded) acclaim: the band has been heralded as the industrial supergroup of the '90s.

 

ORIGIN Middle English: from Old French herault (noun), herauder (verb), of Germanic origin.

 

When one considers the places that this word is found in the Scriptures, one will find keerussoo in these locations:

 

Matthew 3:1-3

1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

KJV

 

At first, Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) was the herald of the Kingdom (and the King). He was the town crier that announced that the Kingdom was within their grasp! He also announced just who the King was!

 

John 1:29-37

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

KJV

 

Then, when Yochanan could no longer be the herald, Yeshua` Himself did the heralding for a time:

 

Matthew 4:12-23

12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;

13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:

14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.

19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.

22 And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.

23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

KJV

 

Matthew 9:35

35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

KJV

 

Then, when they were ready, He passed the job on to His disciples:

 

Matthew 10:5-8

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

...

KJV

 

By the way, “at hand” does not mean “IN hand”; it means it is “within your grasp!"

 

So, when one sees that this “heralding” was an announcing about the Kingdom coming and the presence of the One Chosen by God to be King over Israel, the Messiah Yeshua`, Romans 16:25 is talking about the heralding ABOUT the Messiah Yeshua`! Indeed, here is what the Holman Christian Standard Bible says:

 

Romans 16:25-27

25 Now to Him who has power to strengthen you according to my gospel and the proclamation about Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept silent for long ages 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic Scriptures, according to the command of the eternal God to advance the obedience of faith among all nations - 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ - to Him be the glory forever! Amen.

HCSB

 

And, here’s the New Century Version:

 

Romans 16:25-27

25 Glory to God who can make you strong in faith by the Good News that I tell people and by the message about Jesus Christ. The message about Christ is the secret that was hidden for long ages past but is now made known. 26 It has been made clear through the writings of the prophets. And by the command of the eternal God it is made known to all nations that they might believe and obey. 

 

27 To the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

NCV

 

I’m not saying that other versions are wrong; I’m saying that they are uncertain and indeterminate! Versions that simply translate with “of Jesus Christ” are not wrong; they are just VAGUE and AMBIGUOUS! Such versions don’t LEAD people to wrong conclusions, but they don’t HELP THEM AVOID coming to wrong conclusions either!

 

Fifth, haven’t you ever heard this saying?

Dale Carnegie said it best: “There is no sweeter sound to any person’s ear than the sound of their own name.” We all know that Yeshua` is not vain nor is He shallow, but wouldn’t YOU like to avoid embarrassment when you mispronounce His name before Him and those around Him when He sits on David’s Throne? When you talk to those who have lived before you in the Resurrection, wouldn’t it be nice not to need to explain to whom you are referring? AT NO TIME in the Scriptures are we promised “perfect knowledge” in the Resurrection. Therefore, however long the learning curve will be, THERE SHALL BE A LEARNING CURVE for ALL of us! Wouldn’t it be nice to shorten that time? It’s not just about semantics, brother!

 

And, speaking of a "passing breeze unattached,” your understanding of Jewish history has about as much depth!

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Sister.

 

 

Shalom Retrobyter.

 

This verse should clarify it;

 

  Matthew 16:20   Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ

 

God invented language.  It all comes from Babel.  Babel = confusion.

He saw beforehand that man would bring their language rules into his Word to disrupt a simple message.

 

Is the Word of God for the educated or simple?

Are we trying to complicate that simple message?

Or do we just trust that God used men of his chosing to interpret the scriptures into a language we can all understand.

The English language has many descriptive words, more than the Hebrew or Greek. 

We can pinpoint the meaning of a word in a second, and not need to look at the context to see what word means what....usually.

 

So the message we give to others, is to go and seek what the Word of the Lord has to say, for in them we will find life.

Whatever our tongue, God has preserved his Word for everybody so that we can hear his message.

There's no need to complicate it, because educated men like doing this.  The one thing they forget is that it's the spirit that teaches, and not them.

 

God has everything covered, and made it possible for us to find him in our own language that we can understand.  He's done all that interpretation groundwork for us, and now all we have to do is read.

It's that simple.

 

 

I’d laugh if your words weren’t so tragic! You have a GLARING contradiction in your argument: When you said, “Is the Word of God for the educated or simple? Are we trying to complicate that simple message? Or do we just trust that God used men of his choosing to interpret the scriptures into a language we can all understand.” Can you not see, that those “men of His (God’s) choosing to interpret the Scriptures into a language we can all understand" were EDUCATED?

 

It’s true that God has perfectly preserved His Word; however, you must realize that He used HUMAN BEINGS to preserve His Word and CONTINUES TO USE THEM TODAY! English is a living language; that is, it is a language that is constantly in flux. It grows with the cultures that use it. As it grows, it becomes a DIFFERENT English than it used to be. A good case in point is the “King’s English” of the early 1600s. Some words that were used in the KJV had meaning then but are considered archaic today! Words like “wot” and “trow” are examples. Other words, like “hope,” have changed their meanings slightly. That’s why new translations are constantly emerging. They are attempts to stem the gap that is ever growing between the versions we have and the language we speak on a daily basis.

 

Don’t knock knowledge. It’s how God has given you the “simple message” in the "Word of God for the simple."

 

You said, “The English language has many descriptive words, more than the Hebrew or Greek. 

We can pinpoint the meaning of a word in a second, and not need to look at the context to see what word means what....usually."

 

Really? Can you tell what I mean when I say the word “file?” How about “bit?” Or, maybe “field?” Don’t be so secure in your language.