Mark777 Posted May 24, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 24, 2006 Hi - coming an going! Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry.......and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have foewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. " Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted May 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 24, 2006 What I do notice about Galatians 5 is that it notes that attempting to be justified by the law means we are fallen from Grace (Grk: charis) which also means good favor. It does not say we are fallen from salvation (Grk: soteria) Galatians 5:21 confirms that those who practice lawlessness (the deeds of the flesh) have fallen/are falling from salvation: Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry.......and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have foewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Not inheriting the kingdom of God is losing salvation and Paul was warning the churches in Galatia that they should not practice these things, instead they ought to walk in the Spirit so that they do not gratify the lust of their flesh. How did you come to the conlusion the "not inheriting the kingdom of God" is equivalent to "losing ones salvation". I see nothing in the passage that states this. All I see is a statement that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom. I see no statement regarding them having been save then loosing it. One could just as easily say they were not saved in the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NewPilgrim Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 German, you plucked that right out of context didnt you. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: *adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, *murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted May 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted May 24, 2006 What I do notice about Galatians 5 is that it notes that attempting to be justified by the law means we are fallen from Grace (Grk: charis) which also means good favor. It does not say we are fallen from salvation (Grk: soteria) Right, but Paul specifically says by grace you have been saved, so falling from this grace or good favor indeed means losing the means of soteria or salvation. So here we see him saying that if you try to justify yourself to God to earn your salvation in ANY way, then you have "fallen" from this grace. I can't find anything which would suggest that means anything else beyond what Paul says it means, they must have fallen from somewhere, and we are saved by grace, fallen from grace. No one person is more saved than any other believer, as we are all equally condemned in the eyes of the God, our sin condemns us all exactly equally, thus the only place we could possibly fall that is out of favor with God, is out of faith in God. It is about faith not our works lack of faith is the only thing which can actually condemn us, can we lose our faith can we come to simply think it is all a bunch of bunk, after having a fervent belief that it was true? I think we can say that this did happen in scripture, Paul was certainly worried about it. The strange thing is that we go back to a semantics game, if a person is worried about losing their faith then they could not lose it. When a person loses their faith they do not worry at all about God or Christ or their faith, they see them as they see Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy, nice stories which could never be true, they see it as a big zero a nothing, they certainly are not worried about losing their faith. I would agree with the OSAS people in this, if you have faith, no person, no thing, no government, no church, no demon, no temptation, no power in heaven or hell could steal that faith from you, ever. True faith cannot be stolen or snatched away from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted May 25, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2006 2 Timothy 2:13 "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." 1 Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NewPilgrim Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 smalcald, though you recognise the separation of the language, you are still equating Grace to be Salvation. Yes it is by grace we are saved, but salvation is not the only result of grace. By grace we are upheld, by grace we are sanctified, by grace we are granted insight, by grace we are given rest from struggle. There are so many facets of Grace, so many effects. To be fallen from grace or "out of favor" does not have to mean you have lost salvation, it can equally mean that you will not have Gods guidance trough your struggles it can mean that you will not have the means to easily overcome obstacles which God might otherwise ease your passage over. Moses could have swam the red sea or he could have walked through it. Because God is gracious, God allowed him to walk through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cephas Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 If once saved always saved why then Judgment Day? Judgement Day is for the non believers and for those who wish to be judged by their works. The Book of Life contains ALL who trust to Christ for their Righteousness, ie all true Christians, those who live by Faith, not works. All others must be judged by their own deeds, and since ALL HAVE SINNED, that means ALL that are not in the Book of Life pay THE penalty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germanJoy Posted May 25, 2006 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 97 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2006 (edited) If once saved always saved why then Judgment Day? Judgement Day is for the non believers and for those who wish to be judged by their works. The Book of Life contains ALL who trust to Christ for their Righteousness, ie all true Christians, those who live by Faith, not works. All others must be judged by their own deeds, and since ALL HAVE SINNED, that means ALL that are not in the Book of Life pay THE penalty Judgement Day is the separation of the sheeps and the goats, it is for all "true believers" (sheep) and "fake believers" (goats). Non-believers are already judged while still here on earth. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18 Non-believers (whose names are not written in the Book of Life) are bound/already judged to be thrown into the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the Book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:15 But for the dead standing before the throne ("believers" stand before the throne), another book is opened also called "book of life" where the DEEDS are written and will be judged. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds Rev. 20:12-13 The point is every person will be judged according to his deeds, good or evil by God. The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil. Eccl. 12:13-14 Notice Jesus did not say "He who believes in Him will (future tense) not be judged" but He said in John 3:18: "He who believes in Him is not judged" (present participle), by anyone here on earth for the judgment is done by God Himself. Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time (the Judgment Day) but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden(referring to Eccl. 12:14)in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God. 1 Cor. 4:5 The works/deeds of the slaves, the believers, will be judged and the worthless slaves/believers will be cast out into the outer darkness: And cast out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 25:30 This clearly tells us that the slave, the believer, lost his salvatioin in that he was assigned a place where the non-believers are. Only the believers who DO (work) the will of God will be saved. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord, willl enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21 Obviously, those who call on the name of the Lord Jesus were believers too but since they did not DO the will of the Father, they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. I can name so many teachings/parables of Christ that says not all who believe will be saved but only those who really "worked out their salvation with fear and trembling", those whose lamps do not run out of oil, those who build their house upon the rock. Edited May 25, 2006 by germanJoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germanJoy Posted May 25, 2006 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 97 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2006 (edited) What I do notice about Galatians 5 is that it notes that attempting to be justified by the law means we are fallen from Grace (Grk: charis) which also means good favor. It does not say we are fallen from salvation (Grk: soteria) Galatians 5:21 confirms that those who practice lawlessness (the deeds of the flesh) have fallen/are falling from salvation: Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry.......and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have foewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Not inheriting the kingdom of God is losing salvation and Paul was warning the churches in Galatia that they should not practice these things, instead they ought to walk in the Spirit so that they do not gratify the lust of their flesh. How did you come to the conlusion the "not inheriting the kingdom of God" is equivalent to "losing ones salvation". I see nothing in the passage that states this. All I see is a statement that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom. I see no statement regarding them having been save then loosing it. One could just as easily say they were not saved in the first place If you inherit something, you are called the heir. If you are the heir of God, then you are the son of God. If you are not the heir of God, you are not the son. While the righteous heirs/sons who are saved inherits the kingdom of God, the unrighteous who are unsaved cannot inherit but are thrown into the lake of fire. Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:9-10 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. Rev. 21:8 But those who overcome will inherit all things. He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. Rev. 21:7 That is why "not inheriting God's kingdom" is equivalent to "losing salvation" for inheriting God's kingdom makes one His son while not inheriting makes one His enemy, unrighteous, evil-doer . Edited May 25, 2006 by germanJoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted May 25, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2006 And again, " Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9 and "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God." 1 John 5:4-5 and "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:15 and still "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." John 10:27-30. and finally "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10. In Christ's love, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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