Once Saved always Saved?

[st. Worm]

Pilgrim, I am thinking the most common profession of the Apostles was that of a fisherman like Peter. Paul was a tentmaker although he was a man of great religious education. I will get back to you though. I currently have one foot out the door heading home!

[Smalcald]

smalcald, though you recognise the separation of the language, you are still equating Grace to be Salvation. Yes it is by grace we are saved, but salvation is not the only result of grace. By grace we are upheld, by grace we are sanctified, by grace we are granted insight, by grace we are given rest from struggle. There are so many facets of Grace, so many effects. To be fallen from grace or "out of favor" does not have to mean you have lost salvation, it can equally mean that you will not have Gods guidance trough your struggles it can mean that you will not have the means to easily overcome obstacles which God might otherwise ease your passage over. Moses could have swam the red sea or he could have walked through it. Because God is gracious, God allowed him to walk through.

So God will punish some Christians by taking away a little of His grace and give His grace to others?

What Paul is talking about here in Galatians is central to our faith. Galatians is I believe the first written book of the New Testament and it gets right to the heart of the matter, faith alone is what saves us. The attempt to deny the importance of faith and replace that importance by our own works, that is what the Galatians were being tempted to do, and it would cause them to fall from Grace in their attempt according to Paul. Indeed Paul WAS very clear, loss of faith, replaced with works means loss of salvation and he was worried about it happening to these believers thus they

[Mark777]

1 John 5:13

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

Eternal life - non ending life - everlasting life - we HAVE it - Amen - I have it!! - I believe in the name of the Son of the Living God Jesus Christ!! I have e-t-e-r-n-a-l LIFE - right now!! It will never cease. Nothing can happen to it!! Thank you Lord! I have already started my eternity with God. I will become more like Jesus and less like my old self. I will be perfected in His name. I will never perish. I will be conformed to the image of His son. I am sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption - THE GOD HEAD DWELLS WITHIN ME - I have His promises of salvation and life and perfection - He will keep me and mold me as His workmanship. What or who could thwart God almighty.

I LOVE YOU JESUS

and you too people

Mark

[Guest NooPilgrim]

Thats a great verse Mark, the trouble is that those who lack fith and are not submitted to God will simply content that they have it, but they can throw it away. I dont think they understand the meaning of eternal...I always though it meant WITHOUT END, but they contend they can bring it to and end of their own accord, they trully must be greater than God

[germanJoy]

That is why "not inheriting God's kingdom" is equivalent to "losing salvation" for inheriting God's kingdom makes one His son while not inheriting makes one His enemy, unrighteous, evil-doer .

Not inheriting the Kingdom is equivalent to rejecting the gospel. If you had the insight to understand the passage properly you would see that the writer is clearly distinguishing between those who reject the gospel and continue to live by the law of the flesh and seek to be justified by it, and those who hear the gospel of Christ and are saved by it.

Think about it, if by believing on Christ we become sons and heirs...if it were possible to lose our salvation then we would FORFEIT our inheritance. The Apostles were educated and articulate men. If they were warning that one might forfeit their inheritance, they would have said exactly that.

I've already highlighted how the passage makes the distinction between believers and non-believers a few posts back, however I will endeavour to make it much clearer for you.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: *adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, *murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those who live by the flesh, revel in sin without repentance will perish and not enter the kingdom of Heaven

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

But those purchased by the blood of Christ and indwelt by the Holy Spirit (the seal and guarantee of our inheritance - Eph 1:13) live much more righteously, having cast off sinful practise. Therefore, do not behave like one who is still walking in the works of the flesh.

Well in fact Paul did FOREWARN the believers of not inheriting the kingdom if they practice such things.

envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:21

I guess you need to fully understand that the works Paul was talking about in Galatians were the WORKS OF THE LAW, the works of the flesh. This has nothing to do with the JUDGMENT OF DEEDS/WORKS of good and evil in Rev. 20:12. Do not mix these two up.

Although Paul was instructing christians that their salvation is not based on the works of the Law like circumcision, observance of Sabbath, etc. but that one is justified by faith alone in Christ Jesus, he was also telling them that those who practice evil (which is a work that will be judged) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

For a tree is known by its fruits, a bad tree bears bad fruit while a good tree bears good fruit. That is the reason why there are false apostles, false prophets, and false brethren. These "false believers" also call Jesus "Lord" but the difference is their deeds are evil.

And yes the Apostles were vigilant enough to warn us not to be deceived. By their fruits, we will know them and not by their pleasant words about salvation but by their deeds.

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.

And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their deeds. Galatians 11:13-15

Edited May 26, 2006 by germanJoy

[germanJoy]

Judgement Day is the separation of the sheeps and the goats, it is for all "true believers" (sheep) and "fake believers" (goats). Non-believers are already judged while still here on earth.

The sheep and the goats are Jews and the "judgement" that this refers to is the sorting of Righteous and unrighteous Jews. If you notice the following verses in the passage, the sheep have no idea what Jesus is talking about when he says "you visited me in prison, fed me while I was hungry..." A "true believer" as you would understand it, would be very familiar with Jesus words "whatsoever you do to the least of my bretheren, this you do also unto me"

The Sheep in this case are Jews who are sympathetic to the cause of christians and take good care of them during their affliction, most probably during the satanic tribulation - 3 and a half years where he is given the power to fight and subdue the saints (revelations)

What makes you say that the "Jews" (the unbelieving, you mean?) are the sheeps and the goats? There are no righteous and unrighteous jews (at least not how you see it). The "righteous jews" have Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and they are called "christians, christian jews". The "unrighteous jews" are those who reject Jesus and they are called "antichrist" just like the gentiles who also reject Christ.

In the parable, the sheeps and the goats are the "believing jews and gentiles". Jesus declared THOSE who do the Father's will are His brothers. Thus when He said " if you do it to one of these brothers of Mine", He was addressing it to the believers.

The "true believer" being not familiar with Jesus words as you have put it does not make sense. In fact, the "righteous or sheep" in this parable knew the words of Christ in that they followed His ways, they performed works of righteousness. And the "accursed ones or the goats" did not know His words in that they did not DO or perform any works of righteousness. That is what the parable is all about.

[Mark777]

Noo Pilgrim - "Thats a great verse Mark, the trouble is that those who lack fith and are not submitted to God will simply content that they have it, but they can throw it away. I dont think they understand the meaning of eternal...I always though it meant WITHOUT END, but they contend they can bring it to and end of their own accord, they trully must be greater than God"

This would be like a man drowning in deep water - almost unconscious - and a hand reaches in and grabs Him lifting Him out of the water. The man take in deep breaths that revive His soul - he never noticed how bright and lovely the light of day was until then - But for some reason the call of the depths overpowers him and he wretches himself from that hand and plunges back into the deep to drown.

Can't happen. Why would he? Because he wants to? I don't think so!

It would also be God's failure for not holding on when He promised He would never forsake us and that we would never perish and that we would live with Him for eternity. I mean, after all, we have no ability to begin with to swim and save ourselves. It is God who does the saving, and securing.

Have a good day today, folks.

Jesus is with you and He will never let go! Trust Him.

Mark

[Guest NewPilgrim]

I guess you need to fully understand that the works Paul was talking about in Galatians were the WORKS OF THE LAW, the works of the flesh. This has nothing to do with the JUDGMENT OF DEEDS/WORKS of good and evil in Rev. 20:12. Do not mix these two up.

Exactly. The old covenant which judges by the flesh and is not apt to prevent the unbelieving from revelling in the work of the flesh.

[Guest NewPilgrim]

What makes you say that the "Jews" (the unbelieving, you mean?) are the sheeps and the goats? There are no righteous and unrighteous jews (at least not how you see it). The "righteous jews" have Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and they are called "christians, christian jews". The "unrighteous jews" are those who reject Jesus and they are called "antichrist" just like the gentiles who also reject Christ.

You speak as if you believe the sheep and goats scenario is an ongoing process. It is in fact an endtime prophecy which speaks of the end of the tribulation period

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

When Jesus comes in his Glory, by which time we have been raptured to him and enjoyed the wedding banquet. So who is he separating? The ones that remain after the rapture of the Bride, that is those Jews (and possibly some gentiles I will conceide) who tended to the Bride of Christ while she suffered under the tribulation of the antichrist, before being raptured.

Again you missed the obvious point that a "true believer" as you would call it would know the simple premise that what you do to a christian you do to Christ, yet in this passage the sheep have no clue what Jesus means, not one of them. There will be many Jews who though sympathetc are not at all familiar with the words and meanings of Christ having held the NT in contempt and it is their love for christians which will hold them in good stead, for having loved christians they have loved Christ.

[germanJoy]

What makes you say that the "Jews" (the unbelieving, you mean?) are the sheeps and the goats? There are no righteous and unrighteous jews (at least not how you see it). The "righteous jews" have Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and they are called "christians, christian jews". The "unrighteous jews" are those who reject Jesus and they are called "antichrist" just like the gentiles who also reject Christ.

You speak as if you believe the sheep and goats scenario is an ongoing process. It is in fact an endtime prophecy which speaks of the end of the tribulation period

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

When Jesus comes in his Glory, by which time we have been raptured to him and enjoyed the wedding banquet. So who is he separating? The ones that remain after the rapture of the Bride, that is those Jews (and possibly some gentiles I will conceide) who tended to the Bride of Christ while she suffered under the tribulation of the antichrist, before being raptured.

Again you missed the obvious point that a "true believer" as you would call it would know the simple premise that what you do to a christian you do to Christ, yet in this passage the sheep have no clue what Jesus means, not one of them. There will be many Jews who though sympathetc are not at all familiar with the words and meanings of Christ having held the NT in contempt and it is their love for christians which will hold them in good stead, for having loved christians they have loved Christ.

Ongoing process? Did I not speak about the "Judgment Day" all the time?

Great observation! Your statement confirms that the "Rapture" is a separate event of the "Judgment Day". I totally agree to that.

Be assured that if you make it to the rapture, you are considered as the "wise virgin" whole lamp did not run out of oil. And as a "wise virgin", you are considered as the "sheep", the "true believer" while the "foolish virgins" are the "false believers". They were too foolish and too lazy to FILL their lamps with oil.

One NEEDS to love CHRIST FIRST before one is ever capable of loving a christian. Unless the jews love Christ, they can never truly love christians. If they love Christ, they will love the little "christs...christians". If they abhor Christ, they will also abhor the little "christs....christians". That is the REALITY of what has been and will be.

By the way, not all dead "christians" will be raised up during the rapture. Read Rev. 20:5

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.