Guest NewPilgrim Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 The same Bible also says the devils believe and tremble. If I am to take this line for line according to what it appears on the surface instead of rightly dividing it, the conclusion would be the devils are also saved. Oh come on butero, below the belt and scraping the barrel. You know fine well that the nature, role and position of angels is not comparable to mankind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 15, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 15, 2006 Butero, It isn't a free gift to put conditions upon it. Conditons cost. The devils believe now but they are judged already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NewPilgrim Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 this doesn't mean a gift granted cannot be taken away. God gave me eternal life with stipulations that I must not return to my former lifestyle of sin. If he gives me a gift, he can place restrictions on it and can also take it away. Seriously? Now you brandish God a liar to prove your point? - Do the words "no wise" and "cast out" mean anything at all to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 15, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 15, 2006 Butero, There were no stipulations mentioned in the passage given except to hear and accept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NewPilgrim Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 (NewPilgrim @ Jun 14 2006, 08:05 PM) The point is that they do have eternal life, the moment they get saved. If they died at that moment, they would live forever with the Lord. At the same time, they can lose that eternal life later on through disobedience. This scripture is not a guarantee that they will not fall later on. I think we are aware of the position you have been upholding for the last few dozen pages, how do you propose to apply this verse in support of it, bearing in mind it pretty much contradicts your position?? Also, perhaps you should be careful in distinguishing what it is to fall and what it is to fall away. To which verse are you refering? Sorry, minor oversight: John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NewPilgrim Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 The same Bible also says the devils believe and tremble. If I am to take this line for line according to what it appears on the surface instead of rightly dividing it, the conclusion would be the devils are also saved. Oh come on butero, below the belt and scraping the barrel. You know fine well that the nature, role and position of angels is not comparable to mankind. The Bible makes that comparison in the book of James to show faith without works is dead. Was James hitting below the belt to make such a comparison to people? I wouldnt expect you understand the book of James too well, given your current standpoint on salvation. James was not comparing salvation of man with salvation of angels, nor does he infer that one may have it and the other may not. The importance of the particular passage to which you refer is that salvation cannot be obtained by works, but rather through faith and that good works are the fruit of that faith. Anyone who claims to have faith but is not born out by the fruits of Gods labour through him is shown by the passage to be dead, that is - the do not have eternal life in Christ. I understand how easy it is to get lost in this fast and furious thread, but perhaps I might appeal to you to refer back to my post about the impossiblity of sin for a child of God and answer the question, whom does Paul serve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NewPilgrim Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 But there are in the New Testament. Again, you cannot take one verse out of context and built a doctrine on it. It must be in agreement with the Bible as a whole, and your interpretation is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NewPilgrim Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 If God can grant all these things to us when we get saved, he can also take it away if we disobey him. Again, I believe when I got saved, I obtained all those promises, and continue in them as long as I don't commit wilful sin. If I do, I by my wilful disobedience count Jesus' sacrifice an unholy thing and have done despite to the Spirit of grace. Based on the inference "he is willing to take it away and may well do" - thats TWICE youve brandished God a liar. Fortunately Peter having denied Christ three times was later given chance to three times prove his love. Aren't you glad God is so forgiving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 15, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 15, 2006 Butero, I think that I will stay with what Scripture says. That when I heard the words of Jesus and accepted them that He gave me eternal life and that I have passed into life out of death. Now if Jesus was here and offered eternal life to me and I accepted and then He said," Ah Mark, there are some things you need to do or the eternal life I gave you will be taken away." I would say, " Well, why didn't you say that it was conditional life in the first place!" Butero, the gift is free and has no conditions to it. Instead God recreates you into a righteous person instead of a person controlled by a sin nature. He meant eternal or He would not have said it. Butero, I am going to give you a dollar, its just not going to be a real dollar. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NewPilgrim Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 James 2:19,20 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? I answered this earlier and was accused of making a bad comparison, angels or devils with men, so I decided to let James answer. You can argue with him about whether it is a valid argument or not. see above you cannot take one verse out of context and built a doctrine on it. It must be in agreement with the Bible as a whole, and your interpretation is not. Again I say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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