Mark777 Posted May 20, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2006 Hello, This is what I see Hebrews chapter six as saying. It is refering to people that have experienced the Christian life and power by being in intimate fellowship - such as in a church - with true believers but not regenerated. At the begining he is speaking about not having to explain again, possibly to such people, the foundation of our faith and that the author believes his intended readers are true mature Christians. The people he refers to as "falling away" has "tasted" not fully experienced these things. And it is impossible to renew them because they have turned their back on the only possible source of salvation - they would crucify Christ again.....not accepting the first sacrifice. It is not acceptable to think that God would give dead sinners a free gift of eternal life, seal them unto the day of redemption, and indwell them - just to condemn them because of sin. He could have just condemned them. Instead,it is like God to DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE SIN PART! Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jckduboise Posted May 20, 2006 Share Posted May 20, 2006 I know that I keep my salvation as long as I continue to attempt to be obedient to the Lord and continue to recognize and take responsibility for my sins and seek to change....it is turning our backs on Christ all together that is being spoken of in Heb 6:4,5,6 etc that will cause us the loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted May 20, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2006 I do not believe that is possible. God is powerful enough to keep me. Jesus will lose nothing that has been given him. A true believer would not ever turn their back on Christ. It is impossible. It isn't you that keeps you it is the love and forgiveness that God has applied to you that keeps you. That grace is a free gift. A gift doesn't have conditions. But Salvation comes with an effect on the believer. That effect is caused by a new nature being created within us that yells ABBA, Father. It wants to please God more than our old nature wants to rebel against God. We are not the same after regeneration. Hebrew 6 is not talking about true Christians or talking about salvation. It is talking about pew sitters that have fallen away from the warmth of the sun. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jckduboise Posted May 20, 2006 Share Posted May 20, 2006 Pesonally I do not agree with your complete reasoning but that is okay. Have a good night and God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted May 20, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2006 mark quote: "I do not believe that is possible. God is powerful enough to keep me. Jesus will lose nothing that has been given him. A true believer would not ever turn their back on Christ. It is impossible. It isn't you that keeps you it is the love and forgiveness that God has applied to you that keeps you. That grace is a free gift. A gift doesn't have conditions. But Salvation comes with an effect on the believer. That effect is caused by a new nature being created within us that yells ABBA, Father. It wants to please God more than our old nature wants to rebel against God. We are not the same after regeneration. Hebrew 6 is not talking about true Christians or talking about salvation. It is talking about pew sitters that have fallen away from the warmth of the sun." sw: mark, that is certainly the Calvinistic interpretation but I still don't believe there is any reason to accept that rational. In addition to that passage in Hebrews, there are numerous other passages that warn believers of falling away and I don't think you can explain them all away by saying they are just referring to "pew sitters who have fallen away". I would include in these 1 Corinth.:10:12, Luke 8:13, 1 Tim 1:19, 1 Corinth 9:27, and Philippians 2:12. Obviously Calvinists have to explain these verses away in such a way as to not disagree with "P" of the TULIP. perserverence of the saints. I would agree that there are also numerous verses that tell us about our assurance of salvation. Both types of verses, those that warn and those that assure, are God's Word and cannot be ignored. When God tells us we are in danger we should believe it. When He tells us we are safe and assured of our salvation we should also believe that. When we become proud and presumptious, then the warnings of the Bible should push us away from our pride and self assurance. When we despair and doubt that we are saved the assurances of the Bible take us away from our doubt and comfort us. That is the constant tension we must deal with as saint and sinner. Indeed God elects those who will be saved, but we are justified by faith, not our perception of election. The logic of Calvin does not really do justice to the text, for we must deal both with the warnings and the assurances and neither can be explained away with reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted May 20, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2006 (edited) Philippians 2:12 So then, my beloved,just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with)fear and trembling. (Obviously this is not saying that we obtain salvation by working it out since the Bible clearly says that Salvation is by grace not by works. This verse is referring to the attitude of humbleness we should approach living the Christian life. 1 Corithians 9:27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. (Disqualified from what? Does not mention salvation. What about his mind and spirit?.) 1 Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. (Doesn Edited May 20, 2006 by Mark777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jckduboise Posted May 20, 2006 Share Posted May 20, 2006 Is is possible that "does not fall" is linked to falling from grace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted May 20, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2006 mark777, you are doing exactly as I said you would. In order to maintain your Calvinistic axiom you must twist the interpretation of those verses in such a way as to maintain your Reformed systematic. If you don't do that, then your "Perseverence" falls apart quickly. Making shipwreck of our faith is exactly what it says. To say that the verses don't apply to salvation because the term is not specifically used is a very weak explanation. I understand your plight. When I was coming at it from your perspective I did the same thing. The warnings to believers are clear and we are wiser to heed rather than ignore them and think we are somehow better than those who have fallen away. Truth be told, we are no less subject to temptation than David, no stronger than Peter and no less attracted to the world than Demas. Our road is perilous and full of danger. To not acknowledge that is to deny God's Word and His gracious warnings to believers. Why dear soul would Scripture offer a warning of falling away to unbelievers? What sense does that make? Clearly the verses are directed to Christians, not others. Blessings, SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted May 20, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2006 (edited) st. Worm, You must be arguing with someone else. Calvinistic axiom? Reformed symantic? I am arguing from Scripture. You must be one of those us and them kind of people. I would appreciate it if you could just talk to me and not some other person(s) through me. As far as I know I did not try to TWIST Scripture. It is my honest reading of it. And I do not know of any PLIGHT that I have. None of the Scriptures you listed pertained to salvation. Mark Edited May 20, 2006 by Mark777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted May 20, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2006 "Why dear soul would Scripture offer a warning of falling away to unbelievers? What sense does that make? Clearly the verses are directed to Christians, not others." The whole Bible is a warning to nonbelievers! We are all nonbelievers. It is God who calls us and saves us. It is He who gives us the ability to walk in His truth. We are nothing. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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