Mark777 Posted June 16, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2006 Yes CC, he was either not a Christian but with pious works like a good pharisee, or he is a Christian that is sinning and God will correct or punish. You know CC, God can correct him. He wouldn't be the first believer to sin. Look at David. He commited adultery, killed the womans husband. How long did this go on before the prophet came an convicted him? God still loved David, as He does the world. It isn't His wish that any should perish. If this man is a Christian, the Holy spirit will bring him to correction or kill Him....... Pray for him. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 16, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2006 Easy CC, Those that are "IN" Christ are those that have accepted Him and have been "sealed" by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption - you know - those that Christ gave eternal life to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 16, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2006 Its funny Horizion, That there is a world full of scholars that refer to this passage as difficult in determining its exact meaning but it isn't to you. No, You are most clear. I wonder why. You have little to hang your ideas on and this is as close as you can get. So, you hold onto it for dear life. You say believers can be lost - Jesus says that He will lose nothing. HMMMM - which will I believe? Lets see.......? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 16, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2006 For CC, ""Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. " John 5:24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 16, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2006 John 6:37-40: Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 16, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2006 As we see in John 6:37-40, people can see Christ, follow Him, hear Him, be feed by Him and still not believe. They can profit from His wisdom and power by being in close proxinity to Him. Got to go for now,.......................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted June 16, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted June 16, 2006 If this has been discussed earlier, please forgive me. It seems to me that if salvation is lost, regained, lost, regained, etc., then there should logically be degrees of sin also. Every Christian sins every day. And if God makes the distinction between intentional and unintentional sin, then He must distinguish between degrees of sin also. An unintentional sin can be forgiven, so long as the believer realizes that sin and repents of it. Intentional sins can be forgiven by God if the believer comes to his senses and then repents. Logically this places both types of sin in different categories: Unintentional sin being minor and intentional being the greater sin. I have a couple of problems with this concept. Firstly, if there is a major degree of sin and a minor degree of sin, then we should examine all sins and see if they fit into either one of these categories. I'm not really big on Catholic doctrine, but I do know that these two categories exist, and I know that there are names for them - Venial sins and mortal sins. Venial sins are the minor "unintentional" sins and mortal sins are the types of sins that are committed intentionally, with the act of the will and with the full knowledge that they are wrong. I think the difference between what the Catholics hold as venial sins and mortal sins, and what opponents to OSAS believe, is that Catholics don't believe that confession of venial sins is necessary. They consider those confessions to be pious, but not confessing them does not result in eternal perdition. Opponents to OSAS may argue, however, that confession must be made for all sins, otherwise they are jeapardizing their eternal standing before the throne. This argument is not a "guilt by association," mind you. Although I am opposed to the Catholic concept of venial and mortal sins, I am really just trying to open this up as best I can from my understanding. I believe that all sins are equal in the eyes of God and that, although God obviously sees and understands the intent behind what we do, He nevertheless is offended by all sin. It's frightening to think that God selects whom He will send to eternal torment based upon the type of sin that a believer commits, or whether the believer intentionally or unintentionally committed those sins. If God is equally offended by all sins at all times, then every believer is surely doomed if salvation can be lost. But if salvation cannot be lost surely there is hope for a man like me, whose mouth tends to fly a bit off the handle when he's confronted by something really scary - like his airplane suddenly falling to the ground like a stone, for example. Hi Ovedya, Just to be clear, like Mark, I also believe, as does my congregation that there are no levels of sin or categories of sin (unless you want to segment Original sin from actual sin). So sin condemns us, both the sin we are aware of and the sin we are not aware of. So I would totally agree with Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 16, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2006 For the beloved Cardcaptor: CC verses: 2Cr 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. [This does not mean we are saved or kept by works! The NASV says, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NewPilgrim Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 As long as ones attitude is in the flesh, one will always perceive the will of the flesh to be greater than the will of the spirit. One can argue till blue in the face as to just exactly who Heb 6:4-6 refers to. Verse 9 quite clearly and deliberately tells us who it does NOT refer to: Hbr 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. You'll note the absence of the phrases "lead to salvation" and "attain salvation" and even "maintain salvation". The clear implication that those who HAVE salvation will have fruits that accompany the state of being saved which are quite different to the evidences described in verse 4-6. Horizoneast and others may seek to define "partaker of the Holy Spirit" how they will in order to fit their doctrine, but the writer in the same breath clearly tells us that these partakers did not and do not have salvation. Also it would be nice to put to bed these arguments that people who profess to be christian, whether they believe in OSAS or not, behave like the unsaved and therefore are evidence that 1) salvation can be lost 2) OSAS wrecks lives Belief in OSAS neither condemns nor saves us, it is belief in Christ that saves us and unbelief of the same which condemns us. I can as strongly argue that the preaching of non-securists causes great damage to the faith of other christians and puts emnity between them and the saviour. A conditional Christ can harden a heart just as readily as an unconditional Christ. Grace by the way is not salvation, it is the means of salvation. Grace applies to many aspects of relationship with Christ and in its most common usage simply means "good favour/unwarranted favour" - if you live unrighteously as a christian, you will not be in good favour with God and will suffer the consequences of it in this life, and deny yourself greater reward in the next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 16, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2006 New Pilgrim, Sometime, the people that oppose OSAS, are going to have to acknowledge that the adherents to OSAS believe the most in the power of God instead of the power of the individual to "carry on". We are the ones who are counting on His power and abilities. Even if someone just believes that one can walk away - does a person just decide one day to check out of eternal life? No, if such a thing was possible it would be the ending of a process of becoming faithless and sinful. My question is: where is the Holy Spirit that was supposed to seal and keep us. Where are the assurances of eternal life, where is Christ's words that He wouldn't lose one of us. I know I repeat myself but it is because no one answers. The Scriptures say that we are born again of incorruptible seed but there are people here that believe it can be corrupted. Jesus said that if we hear Him and believe we then have eternal life and would never die. But, there are people here who do not believe it. The Bible is clear. We are nothing. We are unable to do anything of ourselves. Chirst furnishes everything. We will not be lost . God wouldn't allow it. He came and died for us and does all the other things that I keep mentioning and then He is just going to stand around and let us lose ourselves? I do not think so......We were sinner when He died for us - what will He do now that we are His children! Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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