st. Worm Posted June 3, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 3, 2006 Mark777 quote: There we go, arguing theologians! I would rather talk about Scripture. I would honestly like to get my questions answered biblically. SW: Mark, if you want biblical answers to your questions, I can think of no better place to start than with Luther. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 3, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 3, 2006 That is true but I know what he had to say. I want to hear what horizioneast has to say. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted June 4, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2006 horizoneast, You still have provided no proof with anything from the Book of Concord indicating that sin is the cause of the loss of salvation. Bart Eriksson is not authoritative for Lutherans. Why are you so hung up on him? I may be wrong or I may be right but you have not proven it yet. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted June 4, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2006 Horizoneast, Anyone following this can see how dishonest you are. Anytime you start your answer with the "LOL", it means you are trying to divert attention. I asked you to supply something from any of the components of the Book of Concord to support your position and you still have not done so. Like I said, its possible you are correct but I guess we will never know. I was never being dogmatic during this exchange and said I was open to correction. However you have not supplied proof either way. If anything though, what you have supplied supports my contention that loss of salvation is related to loss of faith, not ongoing sin. The summary of the AG that you partially quoted seems to indicate a lack of true faith and therefore refusal to repent. You and I do not disagree about the ability to lose salvation. However where we differ is that I believe its because we reject faith. That results in lack of repentance and lack of concern over sin. Once again, we all sin and we will until we die. Even you dear soul. It is loss of faith that brings loss of salvation. As long as faith is present so is salvation. I believe that is what the Confessions really teach. Being a religious fundamentalist, you obviously have no concept of what a confessional denomination is. None of the people you offer partial quotes from are authoritative for Lutherans. Not even all of Luther's works are authoritative. Get a grip on yourself man. I think perhaps you need to take another long break from here. Your nastiness and silly accusations about my supposed ignorance make you seem small and foolish. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted June 4, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2006 Horizoneast, I too have not had time to completely scour the Book of Concord but below I have attached two questions and answers from the LCMS and one from the WELS, two of the most conservative Lutheran synods regarding this issue. You can read them for yourself but they clearly indicate that loss of salvation is related to LOSS OF FAITH. Any reference to sinning is only in the context that it can destroy faith. But ultimately its destruction of faith that causes loss of salvation not sinning. Even you can't spin it any other way. I know these Q and A's are not authoritative but I think they are more helpful than the partial quotes from individuals that you supplied especially given your propensity to quote out of context. These are the official position of the denominations that come from their websites and seem to clearly support my contention. I hope they are helpful. Q. Recently in a conversation, an individual stated that if a believer dies with unconfessed known sin he or she loses salvation and spend eternity in hell. What is the LCMS position regarding this matter? A. According to Scripture (and the teaching of the LCMS), the sole cause of damnation is lack of faith in Christ. If a person dies without faith in Christ, that person will be damned. If a person dies believing in Christ, that person will be saved--whether or not it was possible for that person to specifically "confess" every sin he or she was conscious of before dying (not to mention the confession of unknown sins, which it would be impossible to confess). To be sure, the stubborn refusal to confess one's sins may be a sign of unbelief, but it is always and only the unbelief itself--not the failure to confess--that damns, just as it is always and only faith in Christ--not confession of sins--that saves a person. Q. Can you lose your salvation and if you can, what do you need to do to regain it again? A. The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod believes and teaches that it is possible for a true believer to fall from faith, as Scripture itself soberly and repeatedly warns us (1 Cor. 10:12; 1 Pet. 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:17; Heb. 2:1-3; 3:12-19; 6:4-8, etc.). Such warnings are intended for Christians who appear to be lacking a right understanding of the seriousness of their sin and of God's judgment against sin, and who, therefore, are in danger of developing a false and proud "security" based not on God's grace, but on their own works, self-righteousness, or freedom to "do as they please." By the same token, the LCMS affirms and treasures all of the wonderful passages in Scripture in which God promises that He will never forsake those who trust in Christ Jesus alone for salvation (John 10:27-29; Romans 8; Heb. 13: 5-6, etc.). To those who are truly repentant and recognize their need for God's grace and forgiveness, such passages are powerful reminders of the true security that is ours through sincere and humble faith in Christ alone for our salvation. A person may be restored to faith in the same way he or she came to faith in the first place: by repenting of his or her sin and unbelief and trusting completely in the life, death and resurrection of Christ alone for forgiveness and salvation. Whenever a person does repent and believe, this always takes place by the grace of God alone and by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's Word in a person's heart. Q: I know that I can contribute nothing to my salvation. I also know that "once saved" doesn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 4, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2006 I just wanted to express my total amazement concerning the silence of my request for a biblical explanation. Is there something wrong with Scripture that it cannot be discussed directly but has to be filtered through men who lived centuries ago and died? And if a certain person will look back - I quoted the Smalcald articles directly where Luther states that salvation cannot be lost. I am putting a list of quotes together that say the same - so keep quoting Luther ( suggesting otherwise) and we will pit Luther against Luther - and then maybe we can finally get to the Scriptures. Mark (Previously posted) OK, I accepted Christ - He promised that if I did so He would give me eternal everlasting life and I would never perish. Christ said that nothing could take me away from Him or the Father. He not only promised me but every other person that accepted Him - He said He would lose not one of us. Paul told me that I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption - Peter, dear Peter, told me that when I was born again I was born of incorruptoble imperishable seed - Paul told me my salvation was a free gift (That cannot have conditions). He also told me that I am not my own work but God's workmanship and that it isn't I who live but Christ lives in me. If these things are not so - God is a liar. Not only did God tell us these things repeatedly but He had His representatives travel world wide with His word telling everyone these thing. And here someone comes and says, "Well, there are exceptions....." Explain that without LOLing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 4, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2006 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED." But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:28-39 '...nor any other created thing..." That pretty much covers everything but God. God says He will lose none and that the life He gives to us is eternal. I am sure there is no doubt in luther's mind now - if there ever was after a certain point of his growth - that God means what He says. You are imperishable, eternal, justified, called, predestined, saved, born again, sealed, kept, the workmanship of His hands........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted June 4, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2006 Horizoneast, My only suggestion to you with regard to issues of Lutheranism would be to start with the Q and A sections of the LCMS or WELS sites. They are usually very helpful with numerous Scripture references just like in this case. I think they are especially helpful for non-Lutherans who want to know what Lutherans really believe. It is always possible to find individual quotes from individual pastors and theologians but those can be misunderstood depending on their context. The denomination websites however usually provide good direct answers to questions. SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 4, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2006 Well, Everyone, Its been fun. All I am doing is repeating myself and with no one responding to my arguments -its all rather pointless. I came here to talk about Scripture. I guess I was to silly to talk to. Goodbye. In Christ's love, Mark777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted June 4, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2006 Quote: Well, Everyone, Its been fun. All I am doing is repeating myself and with no one responding to my arguments -its all rather pointless. I came here to talk about Scripture. I guess I was to silly to talk to. Goodbye. In Christ's love, Mark777 SW: Mark, I agree that when threads run this long we all usually wind up repeating ourselves. Why should you be any different? Also, we can play Bible ping-pong until the cows come home but that seldom accomplishes anything. I have tried to explain to you the Lutheran perspective of eternal security and how it differs from your Calvinistic position which requires that Scripture be subjected to flawed human reason. Instead of dealing with that issue you just come back with the same Scriptural references. Of course those Scriptures are true but you have yet to explain the numerous verses that warn against loss of salvation. Your approach does not allow you to deal with those. Your logic tells you that since we are secure in Christ we have no worries about losing our position. That seems foolish to you but the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men and the foolishness of God warns us not to fall away from the faith he has given us. Those warnings are just as true as the verses you cite concerning eternal security sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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