JohnD Posted March 5, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 5, 2016 One must also take care not to take metaphor literally. Though they be dead, yet they live.... for example. Dead in heart in understanding etc. is not a clinical diagnosis but a metaphor indicating as good as dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted March 5, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,194 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,471 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted March 5, 2016 23 minutes ago, JohnD said: Cool graphics, btw. I would only disagree with the seat of emotion and mind. We have bought into the Greek interpretation of the psuche from which we get psyche and determine this is where the mind actually is... If this were true, then apply this to angels or to God. Where is the mind or the emotion or the individuality? The soul? Does that make each angel and each person in the Godhead a duality of spirit and soul? Obviously not. The account of the Rich Man and Lazarus describes disembodied spirits in sheol (the grave). Note the similar traits between spirits and bodies. Sight, sensitivity to fire, thirst, having a finger that water could quench thirst, etc. Some argue this could all be anthropomorphic language used to describe what we do not have any reference to in this life. Very possible. Also as possible is there may not be so drastic a difference between the body and the spirit as people tend to believe. That the spirit is not some invisible will-of-the-wisp with witch or genie powers. What is different is the two natures / realities. So what is the soul? I would suggest a buffer between the two realities that are us (as individuals). I did not steal your graphics idea, this is several years old: And to illustrate what I believe the soul actually is: The soul is a buffer between the two realities which exists only when the two realities coexist in us. When the spirit leaves the body in death the buffer is not needed and ceases to exist. Like the green color in the illustration above. But the mind, the psyche, that which gives life to our bodies is all in the spirit. The body is not necessary for a coherent existence thus soul and spirit (whether living or dead) remain in coherence... God's breath caused both to become soul and spirit in the clay formed body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted March 5, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 5, 2016 4 hours ago, enoob57 said: The body is not necessary for a coherent existence thus soul and spirit (whether living or dead) remain in coherence... God's breath caused both to become soul and spirit in the clay formed body. Ah, but the body is most relevant! In that God created the hybrid human in order to deal with sin in the spirit realm (and consequently the physical realm) through the physical sacrifice of death. That way, also, we who are created in spirit as well as body but who will not die in spirit can be redeemed. For we are not in our eternal (infinite) state. The angels who fell in their eternal (infinite) state cannot be redeemed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted March 6, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,194 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,471 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted March 6, 2016 3 hours ago, JohnD said: Ah, but the body is most relevant! In that God created the hybrid human in order to deal with sin in the spirit realm (and consequently the physical realm) through the physical sacrifice of death. That way, also, we who are created in spirit as well as body but who will not die in spirit can be redeemed. For we are not in our eternal (infinite) state. The angels who fell in their eternal (infinite) state cannot be redeemed. The present soul and spirit are in a eternal state presently... however the body is returning to dust and after the Great White Throne all corporeal will burn up. I give no importance to that which passes away other than God's Word being fulfilled during it's use.... The New Heaven, New Earth and New Body we cannot even dream or think what it will be like ... so no I am not with you on the physical aspect of importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted March 6, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 6, 2016 10 hours ago, enoob57 said: The present soul and spirit are in a eternal state presently... however the body is returning to dust and after the Great White Throne all corporeal will burn up. I give no importance to that which passes away other than God's Word being fulfilled during it's use.... The New Heaven, New Earth and New Body we cannot even dream or think what it will be like ... so no I am not with you on the physical aspect of importance. The Lord Jesus (the Creator of all things created in the beginning [1], btw) took upon himself the human nature [2] he created mankind to be [3]. He sacrificed that nature on the cross [4] to deal with sin [5] once and for all [6]. He rose again from the dead [7] in that nature (that same body [8]) and ascended into heaven [9] in that same human body [10]. He bears the scars of crucifixion [11]. We will be like him in the resurrection [12]. Since there have been and will be no other Gods formed [13] this likeness must be in bodily form as resurrected humanity for all eternity to come [14]. [1] John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-16 [2] Philippians 2:5-8, Colossians 2:9 [3] Genesis 1:26-27, Genesis 9:6, Colossians 1:15 [4] 1 Peter 2:24 [5] Colossians 1:20 [6] Romans 6:10 [7] 1 Corinthians 15:3 [8] John 2:19-21 [9] Ephesians 4:10 [10] Acts 1:11 [11] John 20:27 [12] 1 John 3:2 [13] Isaiah 43:10 [14] Hebrews 10:5 (Psalm 40:6, Exodus 21:6 Aside from all of this, Enoob, you've got a rock solid case... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted March 6, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,194 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,471 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted March 6, 2016 22 minutes ago, JohnD said: The Lord Jesus (the Creator of all things created in the beginning [1], btw) took upon himself the human nature [2] he created mankind to be [3]. He sacrificed that nature on the cross [4] to deal with sin [5] once and for all [6]. He rose again from the dead [7] in that nature (that same body [8]) and ascended into heaven [9] in that same human body [10]. He bears the scars of crucifixion [11]. We will be like him in the resurrection [12]. Since there have been and will be no other Gods formed [13] this likeness must be in bodily form as resurrected humanity for all eternity to come [14]. [1] John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-16 [2] Philippians 2:5-8, Colossians 2:9 [3] Genesis 1:26-27, Genesis 9:6, Colossians 1:15 [4] 1 Peter 2:24 [5] Colossians 1:20 [6] Romans 6:10 [7] 1 Corinthians 15:3 [8] John 2:19-21 [9] Ephesians 4:10 [10] Acts 1:11 [11] John 20:27 [12] 1 John 3:2 [13] Isaiah 43:10 [14] Hebrews 10:5 (Psalm 40:6, Exodus 21:6 Aside from all of this, Enoob, you've got a rock solid case... Look John this is not rocket science and we are, as his children, to lead people into the everlasting way, truth and life.... God has simply said: 1 Jn 2:15-17 15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. KJV Now we understand why this is... everything created can be made an idol and Lucifer now fallen as satan is busy trying to get us to violate the above .... and with everything God requires of us here as denial He gives replacement (Spiritually) Col 3:1-3 3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. KJV though I am remaining here with flesh unredeemed I am placing all my treasure in where my body (now) is not... Can I know what it is like? No according to Scripture 'The just shall live by faith' -that faith is defined by Heb 11:1 I am therefore held in a tension of waiting upon God to see what it shall be 1 Jn 3:2 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. KJV You seem to be suggesting that I may use the present form to assure myself of the future form... I disagree totally with this. The spirit that influences us to hold to this form of things is error... one in which I have been delivered from and will not return to! Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted March 6, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 6, 2016 Then, why can't angels be saved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 8 minutes ago, JohnD said: Then, why can't angels be saved? Saved from what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted March 6, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 6, 2016 1 minute ago, Teditis said: Saved from what? Matthew 25:41 (AV) 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 3 minutes ago, JohnD said: Matthew 25:41 (AV) 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Okay... I was accounting Satan's "angels" as demons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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